Legal Debate Over Doctor-Assisted Death
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2013-03-05/legal-debate-over-doctor-assisted-death
Montana’s House of Representatives passed a bill that could imprison doctors for assisting in suicide. Legislation is pending in other states to make it legal. A panel joins Diane to discuss the legal and political debate over end-of-life issues.
Guests
Thaddeus Pope
director of the Health Law Institute and associate law professor at Hamline University School of Law.
Dr. Joanne Lynn
geriatrician, hospice physician and director of the Altarum Institute Center on Elder Care and Advanced Illness.
Dr. Krayton Kerns
doctor of veterinary medicine and Republican member of the Montana Legislature.
Barbara Coombs Lee
president, Compassion & Choices, and chief petitioner of the 1997 Oregon Death with Dignity Act. She was a nurse and physician assistant before becoming a private attorney.
Comments
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By formulating this law in accordance with *his* religious beliefs, Dr. Kerns is depriving citizens with different beliefs -- and no religious beliefs -- of their own freedom of conscience. This is blatantly unconstitutional, as it violates other's freedom of/from religion.
It's infuriating.
According to your first guest, it's not our choice when and how our lives end, but some politicians idea of a god that gets to make that choice?
Sounds familiar... like something the Taliban or Iran would institute.
I wonder if the lawmakers would make a different law when they themselves are under "insuferable pain"?
When and how to die is such a personal decision; it is not for my neighbors, my town or my government to impose. As an atheist, the idea that a state government could determine that it is my duty to persevere because it is God's decision when my life ends is unbelievable.
Take medical doctors out of this entirely. Let the "Christian" MDs keep their religious beliefs. Who said supporting someone's death is not healing? The majority of the world truly believes that we are made in God's image, ie Immortal; we reincarnate or we transcend. Leaving the body can be a real blessing and can be handled in an advance directive.
It's time for euthansia centers where we have options of methods for leaving, can have that last party with all our loved ones, then release ourselves. Only people who fear death would want to keep someone in a suffering body or one in which consciousness is gone. Maybe this is the ultimate civil right.
We help to make the laws. Even if we're not the majority, we still have the right, no-matter if it's for our family members, i.e. pets, or if it's for us to make the request to die without pain and there's no chance to live decently afterwards.
The last two years of my wonderful Mother's life were completely hell on earth--in and out of nursing homes, rehabs, dementia facilities. While considered "nice" places, they were nothing but a jail cell. I will not allow anyone I love to EVER live out their lives in this sort of hell. What a horrible reward for a life well lived.
Pam
Brecksville, OHIO
Montana has passed a law to penalize doctors assisting suicides yet is a death penalty state. The conflict is astounding.
My friend, YOU have no idea what YOU are talking about. The Affordable Care Act ABSOLUTELY gives the government the right to make ALL decisions about degree of care and to whom it is allowed to be given. Do some research: Look at other countries that have instituted socialized medicine, which is what the ACA is. Australia. England. Canada. Failures, all. The best doctors flee from those places, to go where they can practice what they are trained to do, without interfering government oversight. Just because the ACA is not fully deployed yet, people don't see what they have let themselves in for.
I don't agree or disagree with one side of this debate or the other- I haven't made up my mind yet. I do keep thinking about one thing, though. Has anyone discussed the emotional ramifications for the doctor? When a doctor spends his/ her life trying to save lives, how much of a burden is it to carry the the knowledge of actively ending a life?
Those opposed to individuals making choices about their own right to end their life consistently appear to use a theological argument against choosing to end life. The theological point assumes that all death is brought by an act of God. This would infer that murders, miscarriages, automobile accidents and other "accidental deaths" are the Will of God. As a theologian, I have issues with this line of thinking and the God such a myopic perspective defines. And, it seems to me, that under the First Amendment, I should be protected from your bad theology, not obligated to legally abide by it.
Republicans say they want less government, but they really just want their version of more governance.
So, according to the bill's sponsor, it's okay for physicians to prolong a human's life, but not okay to shorten it when those measures fail? His logic relating to interfering with "God's plan" is sorely lacking, IMO. I hope I'm always blessed with logical physicians!
So, according to the bill's sponsor, it's okay for physicians to prolong a human's life, but not okay to shorten it when those measures fail? His logic relating to interfering with "God's plan" is sorely lacking, IMO. I hope I'm always blessed with logical physicians!
How is this Veterinarian not any different than an Islamist extremist who would have everyone else follow his own self-interpreted religious laws? I bet he complains about the Islamists wanting to establish Sharia law in the US. But IMO he's is no different than the extremist Islamist bombers, except he would want to kill by ignoring the pain of the ill person. The bomber is more merciful by killing quickly. His God will judge him.
Those opposed to individuals making choices about their own right to end their life consistently appear to use a theological argument against choosing to end life. The theological point assumes that all death is brought by an act of God. This would infer that murders, miscarriages, automobile accidents and other "accidental deaths" are the Will of God. As a theologian, I have issues with this line of thinking and the God such a myopic perspective defines. And, it seems to me, that under the First Amendment, I should be protected from your bad theology, not obligated to legally abide by it.
Please talk about how hospice care can address both physical and emotional pain and still allows people to die with dignity.
Much of conversation focus about GOD, such as only GOD has the right to end life.
How about all of us that do not believe in God, why are we subject the belief of others? Why is our freedom to choose infringed by the belief of others?
In my opinion we are free to make choices, including the right end our life if so choose.
Of course, as with any choice we need to protect individual with mental illness so not to harm themselves.
My mother too died of dehydration -- she was 101.5 and could no longer swallow. In addition, over 5 months was revived three times against written DNR documents by the for-profit assisted care facility. It was horrible for all of us.
I livei n NC. The population in the cities is well-educated. In rural areas, most of the state, people are poor, uninsured, and could not afford second opinions. How did the speaker who said in OR most patients wouldn't want to die with assistance. How did you validate this statement amongst all the thousands who never got to a hospital or doctor to try and wrap his mind around such a concept as this? It would take weeks and repeated education sessions.
I'm a retired RN with a Masters in Public Health Administration. I've seen patients in their homes when I spent four yr. visiting counties east of Charlotte. The rural poor have no way to pay medical bills, so simply don't go for medical care until they're so sick and unresponsive someone bundles them off to an ER. I doubt anyone has surveyed this population to be included in the figures.
Second item: how many of you have walked all the way through the halls, slowly, in a "rehab. center"/nursing home. Maybe they aren't screaming in pain, but this "rusting away" in wheelchair or bed is probably not what they had on their list of desired ways to live out their lives. What are you considering in terms of these people literally without a voice? They've had strokes or various other illnesses. I had to bring nursing students into this environment for two years, and it was the reason I left the job. Patients physical needs were not being met, complications sent them to the hospital. Dismal.
I took Hospice classes while working in a hospital where medical students were afraid to give cancer patients adequate medication. I then knew proper doses and would call the senior resident over their heads to get more medication. Many of my patients died screaming in pain. Medical education needs to be broadened to cover these issues.
I'm still listening to the broadcast.
I agree with the guest's position that financial considerations are a consideration for probably more people than we realize. It is not the type of reason that is as acceptable as pain and suffering, and therefore people are less likely to mention it. I am a senior citizen in my 60's, my peers are professional, business owners, and the like, and I can tell you that the quality of life discussions we have include finances and how spending down all assets would impact on a surviving spouse.
The whole topic is so politically charged with talk of rationing and death panels that it is hard to discuss rationally. This is a serious problem with longer life spans and the rising costs of care.
It was much simpler in the old days, when once an old person could no longer keep up with the tribe they were left behind with a days food & water. In ancient Japan a ceremony was held, then the old person was carried up to a mountain and left. Those not willing to go were thrown over a cliff into the sea.
Every word that LugNutts wrote is right on point.
Plus WHY are they EVEN bringing GODS WILL into the conversation? GODS WILL should play NO part in lawmaking. And they always speak as though God spoke his will into their ear. It's absurd and ridiculous.
I'm sick of these religious nuts forcing their antiquated fairy tale based opinions on us in the form of invasive and punitive laws and interfering in our lives in ways that are far beyond their scope of influence.
Freedom of religion also means freedom FROM religion!!
I understand your pain at the memory. But if you are ever faced with giving 24 hour care to a confused person who wrecks your house and leaves you exhausted every minute of the day and night, you might just re-think your position.
What I would like to see is more people campaigning for non-profit status for nursing homes, especially as there are so many hundreds of thousands more 'baby boomers' in line for old age and death. There are not enough 'NH' to hold them all. When the tide rises high enough they will change the current situation.
There is profit in warehousing our aged and ill, but let's not call all of them 'nursing homes,' which they are not. Only the wealthy can have decent end of life nursing home or private nursing care. And that is a whole other breed.
Brett, thank god that he is not yet a member of Congress - but only a Montana state rep. because the idea that such misinformation about the inheritance/estate tax seems to have been commented upon by you alone really frightens and annoys me. The nonsense about estate taxes and a so-called "single payer health plan" conspiracy places Dr. Kerns well outside the realm of reasoned dialogue & consideration of the matter in a democracy. How is it that these people get elected?
I feel the same way about assisted suicide as I do about most issues. The decision should be made as close to the home and hearth as possible. So if you want to end the pain of terminal illness you should be able to do so. And as long as certain procedures are followed to assure that the act was a freely made decision of the effected party, then go right ahead and do it. As for all other suicide(Kurt Cobain and such) that should be legal to, if you want to punch your own ticket more power to ya, and good riddance we got enough mouths to feed without wasting resources on those who don't want to live.
My mother always stated her opinion very clearly--if she was was seriously ill and not going to get better, then help her die with diginity. Her quality of life was poor at best before she became ill with an unspecified illness in 2003 and was hospitalized. While in the hospital, she developed pneumonia, was put on a respirator against her will and had at least 1 stroke. For days, no one told us she was in a vegetative state and was not going to get better. My father, brother and I agreed to 'make her comfortable'--what a horrible euphemism-- until she passed away. It was awful--I had to argue with a nurse to give her more morphine for her pain, and because no one would help her have an easy death, we had to watch her die of starvation and thirst over a 3 week period. I KNOW that she never wanted to die like this--she was adamant that she didn't want life support and felt most strongly that people should have the same option that we would provide to a seriously ill pet. After seeing my mother die this way, I can only say that I hope and pray that the laws change so that terminally ill patients can choose to die peacefully and with dignity if that is their wish. The laws today are babaric--we can put down a beloved pet that is suffering but we can't do the same for our loved ones when we know that is what they want? That is just crazy, and govermnent should butt out.
(Julia LaCava wrote)
"Republicans say they want less government, but they really just want their version of more governance."
Excellent analogy Julia. Scary true!
That is exactly the crux America is facing...the Republican political party that is CONSTANTLY "Hypocriticalling" itself. The Republican Party says they want less government, but since 2000-2008, and now recently, the Republican Party has created the greatest government size and control in US history.
These are the same people that go to church as Christians where in church God tells people to forgive, yet these Christians are the most UNFORGIVING people I know. Sadly, the radical Christians in the US mock and spew visceral hatred toward Muslims as a whole, yet cannot these radical Christians cannot see themselves that they are using religion as the same tool as radical Muslims...to spread their own agenda.
Good news is people finally are seeing through their BS, and the younger voters are more progressive and open minded and many of those youth are not blinded by the "Fox News" indoctrination.
as experiencing each of my parents' 3-week terminal hospitalizations in Florida (one at a Jayco 100 "best" facility) proved beyond doubt, effectively advocating in hospital is a requisite skill. It's hard to come by and citizen authors provide the best books on how to do it. To their credit, hospitals tell us to accompany loved ones. They don't say why (too scary) or how (to complex). All to say that the need to advocate spans all hospital experiences nationwide; if staff in OR uses the DWD act's existence to slack off that's just another (in)action requiring patient-family oversight and pushback...in other words, advocacy business as usual, sorry to say.
A horrible program, absolutely horrible! Every one of your guests talked down to the callers as if they were children or idiots! Those who listen to your show are in fact quite aware of the world and current affairs, and more so than the average talk radio audience. To dismiss their concerns for family and even themselves by having your guests dance around questions and talking down to them while listening to you enable them was quite frankly insulting and demeaning! After what I heard today I am convinced you add nothing to any policy debate and should just get off the air so your station can find guests who will treat their audience with respect!
I have to note that Dr. Lynn was particularly offensive. Dismissive of caller concerns and as cold as any bureaucrat avoiding responsibility as any I have ever met. She certainly is not someone I would put my trust into, let alone the care of my mother or father.