Dr. Joshua Kosowsky & Dr. Leana Wen: "When Doctors Don't Listen"
The United States spends $2.5 trillion on health care, accounting for more than 16 percent of our gross domestic product. But more spending has not translated into better results: the U.S. consistently ranks below other countries on delivering quality health care. A major culprit in rising costs is medical testing, which totals $250 billion extra every year. In a new book, two Harvard doctors say physicians rely too much on algorithms and formulas to make a diagnosis, leading them to order unnecessary tests. How to get the right diagnosis and better care from your doctor.
Guests
vice chair, Brigham & Women's Hospital Emergency Department; assistant professor, Harvard Medical School
emergency physician, Brigham & Women's and Massachusetts General Hospitals; clinical fellow at Harvard Medical School
Read An Excerpt
Excerpt from "When Doctors Don't Listen: How to Avoid Misdiagnoses and Unnecessary Tests" by Leana Wen and Joshua Kosowsky. Copyright 2013 by Leana Wen and Joshua Kosowsky. Reprinted here by permission of Thomas Dunne Books. All rights reserved.


Comments
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Pancake Rankin,
Unfortunately that elephant dung on my shoes consists of my student loans acquired to pay for my education - still paying them at age 50. Also, the overhead costs of my practice - employing nurses, medical assistants, office workers, etc. Universal health care would be ideal, but more than just a little complicated.
This is so true, I get most of my information from requesting my medical records and searching the internet. The GI that couldn't wait to do the liver biopsy, ct scan, endoscopy and colonoscopy wasn't heard from for two months even after repeated calls for results. Even when I went back in for the follow up two months later he grimly states your liver looks like this and points to a picture on his wall, says I should go to the Liver transplant center just to get my 'name known'. I asked what that meant? He says well, it's good to visit them and get to know them. He never made the follow up appointment until I called the transplant center myself after reading my liver biopsy results. Good grief, I think they will just let you die sucking every procedure they can out of your insurance and not following up. Thank goodness I kind of feel better after being placed on some medication to reduce ammonia in my system.
Pancake Rankin wrote: "The USA is the craziest Libertine Capitalist nation in history on Earth"
Not to worry, amnesty and Obamacare/Unions should fix things right up. You should be happy Pancake, Obama is doing his best to deliver everything that you claim will help. I don't think you understand how Obamacare is going to deliver it though.
mcboom- You are not the only victim as we number in the millions. But I understand what you're saying: There is no one you can sue, and no one you can confront. Superindividualism always dumps on the isolated individual. (You should have planned better. Take personal responsibility.) It sounds to me from your account that you assumed plenty of personal responsibility without effect, and that you were extremely prudent in continuing to the correct diagnosis. My gracious, we care nothing for eachother anymore. And whose fault is that?
(indoctrination, miseducation, intimidation, discreditation, financial extraction, wealth agglomeration.... glory of glories!)
Transplants are an even more perverse can of worms. I wish you the best.
as an er doc, there's so much right with what they say, esp about giving a concise, chronological history, and be specific- not "oh a little while", but instead "4 hours" or "2 days ago". don't exaggerate to get your doc to take you more seriously, and by that I mean don't add extra symptoms in- if youre there for abdominal pain, don't say "yeah I have a little chest pain too, and it kinda hurts when i pee"- the more confusing the story, the more the doc will just throw up his hands and order a cat scan, for example. and as far as getting a diagnosis, i agree- don't be afraid toask "don you think it's nothing?" or "do you think I will be alright?" realize what a time pressure it is being a doc- youre always behind, youre always pressured to hurry up. also there are some things wrong with what your guests say- for example, ER docs in community hospitals are in a different fix than your guests- we are not tenured, we not are not even employees but independent contractors, and if we are slower that the other docs we don't get any shifts next month. if we don't ask alot of yes or no questions, we can't fill in those check boxes on the EMR (electronic med record), and the hospitals can't bill as much, and we don't get shifts next month. also realize that until there is real malpractice reform, docs will always be strongly inclined to order too many tests or procedures- most all court cases have a plaintiff's attorney starting off with "why didn't you order a cat scan?" or "why didn't you do an immediate c section?"
as an er doc, there's so much right with what they say, esp about giving a concise, chronological history, and be specific- not "oh a little while", but instead "4 hours" or "2 days ago". don't exaggerate to get your doc to take you more seriously, and by that I mean don't add extra symptoms in- if youre there for abdominal pain, don't say "yeah I have a little chest pain too, and it kinda hurts when i pee"- the more confusing the story, the more the doc will just throw up his hands and order a cat scan, for example. and as far as getting a diagnosis, i agree- don't be afraid toask "don you think it's nothing?" or "do you think I will be alright?" realize what a time pressure it is being a doc- youre always behind, youre always pressured to hurry up. also there are some things wrong with what your guests say- for example, ER docs in community hospitals are in a different fix than your guests- we are not tenured, we not are not even employees but independent contractors, and if we are slower that the other docs we don't get any shifts next month. if we don't ask alot of yes or no questions, we can't fill in those check boxes on the EMR (electronic med record), and the hospitals can't bill as much, and we don't get shifts next month. also realize that until there is real malpractice reform, docs will always be strongly inclined to order too many tests or procedures- most all court cases have a plaintiff's attorney starting off with "why didn't you order a cat scan?" or "why didn't you do an immediate c section?"
as an er doc, there's so much right with what they say, esp about giving a concise, chronological history, and be specific- not "oh a little while", but instead "4 hours" or "2 days ago". don't exaggerate to get your doc to take you more seriously, and by that I mean don't add extra symptoms in- if youre there for abdominal pain, don't say "yeah I have a little chest pain too, and it kinda hurts when i pee"- the more confusing the story, the more the doc will just throw up his hands and order a cat scan, for example. and as far as getting a diagnosis, i agree- don't be afraid toask "don you think it's nothing?" or "do you think I will be alright?" realize what a time pressure it is being a doc- youre always behind, youre always pressured to hurry up. also there are some things wrong with what your guests say- for example, ER docs in community hospitals are in a different fix than your guests- we are not tenured, we not are not even employees but independent contractors, and if we are slower that the other docs we don't get any shifts next month. if we don't ask alot of yes or no questions, we can't fill in those check boxes on the EMR (electronic med record), and the hospitals can't bill as much, and we don't get shifts next month. also realize that until there is real malpractice reform, docs will always be strongly inclined to order too many tests or procedures- most all court cases have a plaintiff's attorney starting off with "why didn't you order a cat scan?" or "why didn't you do an immediate c section?"
I know from painful experience that medicine is an art. The most important characteristic of a medical artist is the ability to diagnose a patient prior to testing and having testing confirm it.
Last January I had a severe fall and a concussion and brain bleed. I attributed the fall to arthritis. I delayed seeing a neurologist until the spring. I saw a physical medicine specialist first, who referred me to the neurologist in Houston. All summer that neurologist tried to guess a diagnoses. He kept me off work unnecessarily after I had a fall at work. I finally left his office crying.
I waited two months to get an appointment at the Baylor College of Medicine Neurology Clinic in Houston. It saved my life. The young physician there diagnosed me in twenty minutes with a rare auto immune disease called stiff person syndrome. The follow up tests, though extensive, confirmed her diagnosis. I am now being treated with Gama globulin infusions and have improved. Bottom line: Go where the knowledge is and hope that you are treated by a medical artist!
Sam T. 2- If I'm incorrect about Libertine Capitalism then it is only the deep perversity of the human race killing patients and that portends extinction. So often the "conservative" (authoritarian-sadist personality) advocates oblivion over the demise of his/her ideology. Don't be a nihilist. Please predict our healthcare outcome under the "free market" so I know where you stand. Now you may go to Br. Obama but I do not. I advocate completely socialized medicine instead of his accommodation of corporate profiteers. Luckily for me my life partner Mia is a nurse practitioner. Ha ha ha...
I so appreciate your guests and their valuable book! I think my doctor must have read it some 30 years ago! When my husband and I were expecting a baby we went in search of a GP who could provide prenatal care and delivery. We asked a friend who was a nurse in the maternity unit of the hospital we were hoping to use when the time came for the birth, who she would recommend. We told her we wanted someone who took a more natural approach, was able to work well with his/her patient and had good bedside manners. She kept coming back to the same name, Dr. Mark Nunlist, and we took her good advice. Not only was his care and approach fantastic for our prenatal and birthing needs (sadly, his practice no longer handles these) He has been a great family doctor all around. And the thing that has really set him apart in my mind- he has always been a really good listener. We could not be happier with his helpful, thoughtful, practical advice and care he has given our entire family these past 26 years! I expect he will probably be retiring soon so I hope lots of folks pick up this book by your guests and usher in a new era in health care where doctors like Mark Nunlist become the norm rather than the rare gem!
Thanks theo (in the office) and krk (in the er).
I am aware of your situations because I have social access to a few physicians during their limited free time. Some do talk shop and echo what you relate.
The GP used to be a "community king. priest of science, and caretaker of civil society) as my grandfather was here in Gaston County. The ER doctor was a miracle working free spirit and a saint by definition. All that went by the way as Oligarchs began extracting the blood from our culture like vampires. Thanks theo for realizing the need for socialized medicine. And krk, there will always be a demand for heroes like you. Please realize that in the ER you see people at their worst and disproportionately the most disadvantaged. And please if I come in there from an accident see more than a fat mouthy Lesbian know-it-all. I'm trying my behind off to be a good person. I'm always changing myself to try and change the world.
Thank you SO MUCH for covering this topic and your guests.
Fifteen years ago, I was very ill with undiagnosed Celiac Disease. I had suffered with very painful, yet typical symptoms of Celiac. I went to at least five different doctors and had many tests and was prescribed many drugs with their own awful side-affects. Most of the time, I was told it was all in my head.
Long story short - I took charge of my own health, began searching for causes, instead of having symptoms treated. I saved my own life and my son's life. He also has Celiac.
My son and I have been gluten and dairy-free for almost fifteen years. It is still a daily effort, because of unknown cross-contamination, but we are both much happier and healthier, than we were when we depended on doctors to find a cure, rather than treat symptoms.
It was too late for my mother. She died when I was 17, after suffering for years with the same symptoms that I know very well, including mental symptoms. Her life could have been so much better, if only she had been listened to by the people she thought were there to help her.
Like one of your callers, I felt guilty for years, for not understanding her pain and the mental anguish she went through.
Since some of her gluten-intolerance and/or other allergies symptoms manifested as anxiety and paranoid schizophrenia, she was prescribed various narcotics (never told about side-affects and suffered even more), then at age 51 died, locked away all alone, in a mental hospital.
Before I end this comment, I have one request - since about 1 in 133 people now have some form of gluten-intolerance and probably even more for many other food-related illnesses, would you please have more programs that address this subject?
Thanks again for having programs like your first hour today.
As I listen to the show, it becomes clear to me that by "algorithm" you are referring to very simple 1 or 2 step algorithms: i.e. if this box is checked then that test must be done, etc.
However, rather than speaking out against "algorithms" in general. Might we also analyze the problem as one of the FULL power of algorithmic diagnosis not being employed ENOUGH?
For example, there are algorithms that can analyze literature and determine which ones are good and which ones are bad. There are algorithms that helped Obama win the election, can predict the stock market, beat chessmasters at chess, and predict the weather.
Might we, if we put our minds to it, create an algorithm into which a patient's story (and/or basic medical test information) is typed, and for the algorithm to come up with better and more reliable diagnosese than human doctors'? Or, at least become a very wise clue-giver to a human doctor? Thus, actually REDUCING the need for patient to doctor communication?
susan barry,
Re: electronic medical records: You could not be more incorrect. Properly composed and organized records, especially maintained electronically, provide an excelent source of diagnosis and effective testing and treatment. e.g. Imagine you arrive unconscious at a facility and staff start treating you, unaware that you have allergies......latex, various drugs and antibiotics et al. Would the records not save you misery and even loss of life? Electronic records offer significant advantages for fast and more accurate review, especially in emergent situations. Also consider the actual time saving involved in not repeatedly re-describing family history, personal medical history, current immunizations and prescriptions.
IF a person were permitted to carry with them a thumb drive filled with proper data (as is currently done in the military), the patient and family members are saved tons of time, along with staff time, AND avoiding the inevitable errors, omissions, and incorrect, unnecessary tests........in other words......MONEY is saved too.
Another hour wasted on wag the dog medicine! Sorry folks. Medical doctors are NOT trained in prevention, as evidenced in the fact that not a single question is asked about nutrition, the root of all problems, combined with the poisons called food like genetically altered products , addatives, chemicals for coloring, preserving.
Our bodies have become recepticles for what should never ever be put in them. Until medicine treats the cause, it will never get better results. There ARE so many doctors reversing and curing diseases with what our cells need, a detox of the crap that poisons them, a rest from the fat, grease, concentrated animal protein that weakens them, and a steady build up of the nutrients, minerals and phytonutrients VACANT in our diets. We hear a steady course of "we need to do everything to protect Americans," but NOTHING is being done to protect the food system from profit driven food and medicine. Interesting that a species calling itself intelligent, needs and FDA in the first place. Food and Drugs...Hmmmm. Interesting. Food IS our drug and if we ate what we should, we'd not be seeing such huge claims for insurance to pay for all our preventable , diet related disease. How about interviewing Dr. Pam Popper, Dr. T. Colin Campbell, Dr. John McDougall, or Dr. Caldwell Essylstyn Jr and let the medical voices of reason and prevention have some air time? We get a steady journalistic diet of medically retarded information . Sure, it's sounds so smart and scientific but it gets our disease rates NOWHERE! Cause/Affect. Occams Razor. Food from plant sources is what it was always suppose to be. The result of what it is now, is what it is NOW.