Debate Over Ways To Improve School Safety
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-12-19/debate-over-ways-improve-school-safety
Last week’s horrific attack inside a Connecticut elementary school has sent a wave of anxiety among parents across the country. Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut had a very good security system in place, and the teachers and staff there were well trained, but no system and no amount of training can create a completely secure environment. By every measure students are safer in school than anywhere else. Still, many parents are asking if schools in their own neighborhoods have adequate protections in place for their students: Please join us to discuss school safety.
Guests
Kenneth Trump
president of National School Safety Services.
Lucinda Roy
alumni and distinguished professor at Virginia Tech, and author of the novel "Lady Moses" and several poetry books.
Christine Bailor
safety and security coordinator for Henrico County Public Schools.
David Osher
vice president of the American Institutes for Research (AIR), AIR Institute fellow and co-director of the Human and Social Development Program.
Comments
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I would love to see a data base created for Concealed Carry violations. Whenever the CC debate arises,the NRA says there is no evidence of this or that. Maybe,if you don`t count all the dead bodies. A Concealed Carrier could go into a bar,get drunk,go into a school and gun kids down,or go into a Cracker Barrel and kill his family..... Please start somewhere. WMD`s are step 1. Then track these Conceal Carry permit holders. If they are stopped for OVI,enter violation into data base. If police answer a domestic violence call,enter violation into data base.Make gun ownership a responsibility,just like driving a car. Your law violations will restrict your privileges.
I`m listening to a show that reports 47 children per day on average die by gun...EVERY DAY. We got a huge problem here.
Complains have been made because NRA approved and owned politicians refuse to go on radio or tv,and their voices haven`t been heard. Folks,they are washing the their blood stained hands.What can they offer any audience? The same old failed ideology of,if you want to be safe from too many guns on our streets,BUY A GUN AND ARM YOURSELF.. NeoNutzi yesterday,now,and forever !
I have a son in an urban Magnet program where he is a minority white child. I am constantly concerned for his safety, not because of potential gun violence (which is still quite low and continues to get lower), but because of insidious bullying behavior. It begins with comments and escalates into physical intimidation, including intimidation of one's friends so that they'll be too frightened to have anything to do with you. The public service announcements on Disney Channel recommend that children speak to an adult about the bullying, but that simply makes him more of a target. Adults in our school district seem to pay lip service to an anti-bullying stance, but very little is done to teach bullies how to alter their behavior or to give the bullied a fear-free environment.
Pleae ask the panel to discuss the current practices involving "cool down rooms".....that is, rooms at schools set aside where violent kids are placed temporarily when they act out and endanger others. Note: We personally know teachers who have been physically assaulted and injured seriously by ELEMENTARY school kids......a broken arm for one, twisted arm in a sling for another, foot in a cast for another.
Also please discuss the resistance of parents to discipline children and teach them habits of self discipline (e.g.hurt NO one) vs. Those whose children have severe emotional/mental issues that physicians have prescribed medication that parents won't buy or administer to their kids.
Also please compare discipline measures and safety measures practiced/allowed in private schools vs. Public schools. (Those who grew up used to nuns and brothers demanding very strict behavior can easily report that far fewer incidents occurred in parochial schools in days gone by.)
Kids should always be safe from physical and mental assault while at school and on their way to/from. Security should extend portal to portal to/from school and all points inside.....protected from each other, outsiders, and have certified staff.
It's just going to happen, no debate. I like the idea of arming principals or teachers with CC, but see that as a nonstarter. We are going to get armed security and beefed up exteriors of school buildings.
Sure, lock the door. However, it's mental health care system that needs improvement. Like this woman says http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/16/i-am-adam-lanzas-mother-mental-...
the US solution for the mentally ill, is prison.
What's to debate? You do what you have to do to monitor everyone coming and going to school. It can be done. It won't be cheap, but it can be done. If you want to do it on the cheap, don't expect much.
Armed teachers, librarians, staff??
Yeah....that is sure to change the kids' attitudes. Arming the kids will be the next "innovation". Ever hear of "friendly fire"? That occurs even among highly trained police and armed forces. A local man accidentally shot his own son the other day with an "unloaded" pistol.....it went off as he got into his car. Imagine the furor that WOULD occur if a teacher/staff accidentally wounded a child.
Maybe a munitions "shower" that would rain down bullets if detection devices noted the presence of weapons? That would get the perp......and everyone else.
Maybe get TSA to screen every single person entering a school building. That works SO well in airports.......better confiscate those tweezers and nail clippers.
OR just eliminate multi-shot weapons. A mite less risky.
I am so glad this discussion is being taken up. I support smarter gun laws, and better mental health services, but the issue I am most struck by after these most recent shootings is that our children are not protected in school. It seems that if someone decides they want to kill a lot of people, a school is a logical choice because it is so vunerable. It scares me, because my child is a preschooler at a public school that enrolls pre-school through 4th graders, and the only plan for a predator who could be armed to the teeth is a lockdown procdeure in a room with wooden doors, and nonreinforced glass windows, essentially leaving them as sitting ducks. I understand the idea of an armed security force in schools can seem risky, and I don't think this alone could solve the problem, but doing nothing isn't acceptable to me. We have marshalls on airplanes for this very purpose. Maybe we need guns with rubber bullets, or tazers, or high tech security measures that can properly lock down a building. This nation spends more on defense and military than any other. We should take some of that budget and defend our schools. I can't imagine losing my child and hearing that no one even had the option of protecting them, that all they could do is huddle in a corner and wait to die. There has to be a better options.
I would think that safety in schools starts with parenting at home, doesn't it? Children spend way more time out of school than they do IN school. How students act in school is a direct result of the parenting they receive at home. I don't understand this new philosophy we have that schools should be All Things to All kids. Parents need to be parents, clergy needs to be clergy. Teachers need to teach reading, writing, math and science, not religion, not how not to fight or swear or bully.
Attention freedom lovers, the "new" proposed "assault weapon ban" is not the same as before.
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http://www.feinstein.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/press-releases?ID=28d0c...
1. A federal list for anyone diagnosed with a very serious mental illness that bans them from purchasing a firearm. This list could be taken directly from the social security list for those on permanent disability for a serious mental illness and enacted TODAY!
2. A federal standard for mental health holds, all hospitals, regardless of insurance status, should be required to hold anyone who has threaten themselves or others. The hold should be long enough to have a full mental health evaluation. If the person is deemed seriously mentally ill they should be treated including medication. Yes by force, because the way the laws work now you have the right to be insane, but someone who is in the hold of a delusional attack cannot make a decision on their behalf to ask for treatment.
3. A federal training standard for police forces to know how to respond to mental illness emergency calls and a crisis intervention team to help the families and get the effected individual into treatment and not jail.
4. A federal review of the prison population to determine who is mentally ill and set a standard for treatment.
5. The re-introduction of mental hospitals that allows for long term treatment and real therapy for coping that includes the family. A long term follow up system for those that can reenter the community or a place that can serve long term care for those who would otherwise end up in prison, homeless or dead prematurely.
6. A mandated reporting system for school officials, health care works, public officials, etc that they have to report severe mental illness behavior. The reports must then be followed up by the crisis intervention team to place that individual on a hospital hold until they can be evaluated and treated. This alone could have stopped the murderer that shot Gabby Giffords, the Aurora movie theater murderer, and the Virginia Tech murderer.
I write this as the older sister of someone who suffers from schizophrenia.
I taught for 40 years. After another incident years ago, a man wrote the local newspaper, "Simple solutions exist to complex problems. . . . Encouraging teachers to carry concealed weapons . . . would send a strong message to any student."
These people have never spent five minutes in a teachers' lounge between classes. We are stressed; some of us are clumsy. When one of these weapons was fired, as it would some day, it would surely injure the teacher herself or some innocent person.
Further, some young men would inevitably take it as a challenge to steal the weapon or provoke its display.
A writer to the Times yesterday pointed out that Germany, France, Italy, the UK, Spain, Canada, Australia, and the Netherlands combined have a population of 391 million and 906 annual gun homicides. Our population is less and our gun homicides are 11 times as many. The reason is obvious.
Finally, a mental health professional in Washington State wrote the times yesterday that "Mass shooters are not a mental health problem, they are a gun control problem. Mass shooters use the kind of gun that will kill masses of people quickly. If they tried to kill people by throwing goldfish at them, [they would be a mental health problem]."
Firstly, I am as a parent, comforted by the statistics that show that the safest place for my daughter is at school. We have police present at her school, and they frequently exercise close downs.
Police presence I believe is important. Here in Katy TX a likely school shooting was prevented October 2012, where Hudson (the arrested youth) had intended to target an elementary school exactly because elementary schools are the only ones that do not have police present. Could this also be what motivated Lanza to select an elementary school?
In addition, I think every gun in private hands should be microchipped to enable "remote blocking" of weapons, and all schools should be areas where private guns should not operate. The technoøogy is there. Let's demand the weapon industry to fine tune it and deploy it.
THX1138 wrote:
It's just going to happen, no debate. I like the idea of arming principals or teachers with CC, but see that as a nonstarter.
That's right. When those kids start talking back, the principal or teacher can pop a cap in them. That will serve as a deterrent for the rest of those ungrateful little urchins and bring them in line.
Every problem can be solved, no matter how small, by a show of force, bigger weapons and more of them, so say the conservatives. An ignorant stance that Gandhi, Martin Luther King, and Jesus all proved to be completely wrong.
I don't think the answer for this problem is to arm the teachers. This may be result in more death and violence. The first step to prevention is to disarm the public and have strict laws in gun control.
Diane, could we enact laws requiring all reg. guns to have liability insurance, wouldn't that let the market price how dangerous each gun is?
Please let's get to the crux of the problem.....Shooters can go anywhere in a public place and that has already happened, schools, theaters, shopping centers, etc. The issue is the weapons they are carrying. Are we going to have armed guards in all these public places to protect citizens? Let's work fervently on the source gun control laws. First, nobody but nobody should have an automatic weapon in their possession, secondly all those loopholes need to be closed where people can go to gun shows and buy weapons, security background checks need to be in place. Let's get to the core of the problem...Hello! it's all about gun control.........
Mike Sergeant wrote: "That's right. When those kids start talking back, the principal or teacher can pop a cap in them."
I said "nonstarter", why, because of stupidity like this.
Some conservative politicians, like Gov. Rick Perry of Texas, have suggested that teachers and administrators should be allowed to carry concealed weapons in elementary schools. The state of Texas' legislature also passed legislation to allow concealed weapons on college campus'. This is madness.
I would not send my child to a school where the teacher is "strapped" or the college classmate (the one that chugs at the frat house) is carrying a "Glock" in his backpack. Politicians that make these suggestions and laws should receive "mental heath screening"!
A military base in Texas, with the best trained and armed folks on the planet, was not a deterrent to Major Nidal Malik Hasan.
Don't people see what is happening? We are all held hostage by the pro-gun advocates: our schools are slowly turning into prisons: children have no time to go to the restroom or go outside during recess, we spend money on police officers and counselors instead on teachers. We have to keep protecting ourselves and loose our freedom because others have the Right to Own and Carry weapons. Whose freedom is it : theirs or ours?
I sad it before and I will say it again. It’s Tragic how sick people will use guns.
But let’s keep in mind that the 2nd amendment was adopted by people mush smarter than us, so that the people of this country could protect ourselves from the tyranny of government. The 2nd amendment was not put in place so we could hunt nor to protect us from each other, but so we could protect ourselves from the overreach of government. This may or may not be suitable today but it was the original intent.
This intent also give us the right to have state of the art firearms, it said nothing about just old or hunting firearms. A Musket was the newest biggest, baddest thing on the market at the time. I’m seeing people saying just shotguns and less than 10 round clips. Only guns to be used for Squirrel & rabbits will be permitted. Tyrannical governments don’t send Squirrel & rabbits after people.
So this is not the intent of the 2nd amendment, this may or may not be outdated, but people much smarter than us found it to be necessary.
The people of Israel train each of their citizens the use of firearms, but here in the land of free and home of the brave people like us with a constitutional right, we are afraid of firearms. We don’t understand them and fear them, us free brave people.
I’m not saying we need to be like Israel but if we would be true to our history and ourselves we would add as a rite of passage to our schools a class on firearms, training and use, think of how many children are killed each year because they find a gun and don’t know how to handle it. Think of reducing the fear of firearms across this country, think of the respect we could all have for the 2nd amendment if we all were brave enough to embrace our history.
It takes a sick mind to use a weapon to kill children. It is a naïve mind to think we don’t need them.
But you need to avoid over reaction on the staff of the schools. In Norfolk, the staff is beat down, and they do the same to their students. Trauma unwitnessed is trauma carried on. Imagine a child abused by the reactionary staff of schools, punishing a child for filling a squirt 'gun', earned in a campaign earned in the school. Expelled for the last week of school, upset child's life forever. A decision is not made until the last day. This is real. Imagine teaching your children to walk away from what feels uncomfortable, not having to explain oneself, to keep them safe. Well, that is why they walk out of the schools. So be careful at how the message is delivered and the options for adult reflection given to the staff. Virginia has 'their ways' despite the best efforts of many. Being beat down, constantly, and unreflectively, is 'their way.'
And, automation of working instrumentation, its testing, as well as alertness, are not respected as a legitimate expense by some. Maintenance and professionalism of maintenance staff goes unrespected. No policeman can help a child that has been beat down, or a policeman who is beat down by his own city. Que sera sera.
Please define "automatic weapon". Fully automatic weapons (i.e. machine guns) are not available to the general public. It has been that way since the 1930s. Semi-automatic firearms include MANY hunting models and millions of Americans own them and use them for non-criminal purposes.
I'm wondering what thoughts your speakers might have on a suggestion I heard recently from a retired Viet Nam veteran: that we post our unemployed soldiers from the current war fronts in their community's schools. It would seem that they could be a potent presence as well as deterrent; they all ready know how to use guns safely & effectively - as well as other techniques to avert violence. There seems to be so much positive potential here: good for the veterans, good for the schools' staff and students.
On that theme, I also thought of some programs for returning vets that utilize the care and training of dogs (we have so many in our shelters with this most recent downturn in the economy) to accompany the soldiers guarding the schools.
The Sandy Hook Elementary tragedy is certainly a stunning example of the danger our school personnel & children face. Sadly, there are all too many incidences of injury and death in the schools/on school property throughout the nation that also need to be addressed.
Every school should be encirlced by a stout 6-foot iron fence. Locked gates -- very stout locks. Camera coverage of the entire fence.
Sure, a determined intruder could blow our the fence gate, but it will take him time to do so. In that time, the police have been automatically summoned; the school doors have become double-locked; and all classrooms become locked (although all doors can still open by people trying to get OUT).
Clifford wrote:
I would love to see a data base created for Concealed Carry violations. Whenever the CC debate arises,the NRA says there is no evidence of this or that. Maybe,if you don`t count all the dead bodies. A Concealed Carrier could go into a bar,get drunk,go into a school and gun kids down,or go into a Cracker Barrel and kill his family..... Please start somewhere. WMD`s are step 1. Then track these Conceal Carry permit holders. If they are stopped for OVI,enter violation into data base. If police answer a domestic violence call,enter violation into data base.Make gun ownership a responsibility,just like driving a car. Your law violations will restrict your privileges.
A tradgedy happens and you decide to target one of the safest population in the country? CC holders are exactly the kind of gun owners you want. They go through extra screenings, classes, and are on par with older woman when it comes to crime.
Clifford Wrote:
"I would love to see a data base created for Concealed Carry violations. Whenever the CC debate arises,the NRA says there is no evidence of this or that. Maybe,if you don`t count all the dead bodies. A Concealed Carrier could go into a bar,get drunk,go into a school and gun kids down,or go into a Cracker Barrel and kill his family"
They could, but they don't. There are 8 million concealed carry permit holders in the USA. According to research out of UCLA, concealed-carry permit holders have a much lower rate of committing criminal acts than the general population.
I believe any discussion about gun violence, whether it is due to a mass event like the recent Newtown tragedy or the insidious every day firearms deaths that claim many, many lives every year, needs to start with a discussion of the Second Amendment. The Second Amendment was ratified in 1791. The nation is a vastly different place today than it was in 1791 and the firearms that exist today are probably far beyond the imagination of any of our founding fathers. Thomas Jefferson wrote " .... laws and institutions must go hand in hand with the progress of the human mind. As that becomes more developed, more enlightened, as new discoveries are made, new truths disclosed, and manners and opinions change with the change of circumstances, institutions must advance also, and keep pace with the times." This is part of a correspondence from Jefferson to Thompkinson July 12, 1816 and is inscribed on the inside of the Jefferson Memorial. I believe we as a nation need to carefully consider whether or not the Second Amendment continues to serve us well as a civilized nation. All the discussion of school preparedness and police responses, waiting periods and background checks misses the enormous pink elephant in the room: the enormous quantity and easy access to weapons in this country.
THX1138 wrote:
I said "nonstarter", why, because of stupidity like this.
How is this stupidity? Seems to me that if the scenario that plays out in your mind; where a shooter comes into a school, theater, office and begins shooting up the place and is subsquentially taken out by the other employees/guests who are highly trained and up to date on the latest techniques (because they have nothing else to do other than train), would most likely result in collateral damage. You cannot know what a human being is going to do in times of stress.
In the Tuscon shooting, the guy who took down the shooter was almost shot himself by several other people who came in seconds later and saw a guy with a gun. They have admitted they almost pulled the trigger thinking he was the shooter. The only thing that prevented it was there were no shots being fired at that time verifying the identity. In a room full of guns going off, how do you know who it the "bad guy" is? No amount of training can prevent this, even with professional soldiers. Ever heard of "friendly fire", if not talk to the Tillman family about it.
Please note that John Wayne and Dirty Harry movies were fictional stories where the writers and producers were in complete control of who got shot and who didn't. It doesn't happen that way in real life.
Diane, please have your guests comment on the concept of Gun Free School Zones.
According to gun stats researcher John Lott, every mass shooting on American soil since 1950 took place in a location where citizens are not allowed to carry guns...a so-called Gun Free Zone. The one exception was the attack in Tuscon at the Gabby Giffords rally. All of the school shootings, the Century 16 movie Theater, etc...all gun free zones. The theatre shooting is particularly interesting because the shooter drove past other cinemas to a theatre in a different part of town which did not allow concealed carry holders in.