The Conflict Between Israel And Gaza
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-11-19/conflict-between-israel-and-gaza
Israel is amassing troops and armored trucks on the border of Gaza as the escalation of fighting there enters its sixth day. Israel's cabinet authorized placing thousands of reservists on call, heightening concerns that Israel might invade the Hamas-run Palestinian enclave and possibly spark a wider conflict in the Middle East. Egypt and Turkey are sympathetic to Hamas and are among the nations pushing for a ceasefire. President Barack Obama said the U.S. fully supports Israel's right to defend itself. But Palestinian leaders called Israel's actions unjustified even though Israel has been the target of hundreds of rocket attacks in the past year. Diane and her guests discuss the conflict between Israel and Gaza.
Guests
Michael Oren
Israeli ambassador to the U.S.
Aaron David Miller
vice president and distinguished scholar at the Woodrow Wilson International Center, and former U.S. Middle East adviser in Republican and Democratic administrations.
Shibley Telhami
Anwar Sadat professor for peace and development at the University of Maryland, senior fellow at the Brookings Institution and co-author of the forthcoming book, "The Peace Puzzle: America's Quest for Arab-Israeli Peace 1989-2011."
David Makovsky
senior fellow and director of the Project on the Middle East Peace Process at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and co-author with Dennis Ross of "Myths, Illusions and Peace: Finding a New Direction for America in the Middle East."
Nadia Bilbassy
senior U.S. correspondent for MBC TV -- Middle East Broadcast Center.
James Kitfield
senior correspondent for National Journal.
Comments
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This conflict is due to humans believing in the concept of "Owning Land".
The answer is to give the Earth what She is due and finding an understanding that this planet belongs to all of us and we are all responsible for all of Her.
Building fences and saying "this piece of this planet is MINE" doesn't change the reality that it is all of our responsibility and none belongs to any of us - the entirety belongs to us all.
Building houses does not change the nature of the land - if it is in a flood plane it will flood again - drawing lines of 'ownership' does not change the reality of the land, only the perspective of the people who make use of that land.
We are all responsible for the irresponsible abuse of the entire planet and are also responsible for the healing of the planet, from whom all Blessings come in reality.
The panel is extremely one sided and biased with three hawkish Israeli supporters. And I see that the Israeli govt. is represented with no Palestinian representative. This doesn't seem right. The president and Congress are already biased in favor of Israel, why can't the media try to be more fair? Why can't more Palestinians be represented on these shows such as Yousef Munayyer - Palestine Center in DC, Ali Abunimah - Electronic Intifada, Huwaida Arraf, or Noura Erakat - Georgetown professor?
Dear jordan88:
I'm curious to see some proof for those assertions. I ask because I'm a little tired of people who play the "count the guests" game, and then assert this show (and/or NPR in general) has some kind of "bias". (Usually asserted by conservatives as being "liberal".)
Plus, in my experience those who complain the most about "too much support for Israel" turn out to be the same people who are willing to turn a blind eye (if not make an attempt to excuse or even justify) such "noble" events as: the Munich Massacre, the hijacking of the Achille Lauro (and the murder of elderly, wheel-chair bound Leon Klinghoffer by throwing him overboard), and most relevant of all the rocket attacks launched from civilian areas in Gaza against civilian areas in Israel.
I have no problem criticizing both sides in this conflict, but I usually observe that the most one-sided remarks come from the Palestinians and their supporters.
Let's count them off. The ambassador from Israel with no voice to represent the perspective of Hamas or the people in Gaza. There is David Makovsky, from the Washington Institute - a think tank created by AIPAC. The remainder of the panel, even including Shibley Telhami, is made up of voices that are uncritical of US/Israeli policies. Why is there no one reporting from Gaza?
I was an aid worker in Gaza City during the fall months of 2011. Hamas control in Gaza is not complete. They govern as a result of having won the factional civil war of 2005-2006, but the only faction that they completely drove out of the Gaza Strip was Fatah. The degree to which they have actually been in a position to prevent other, much more extremist Islamist factions from launching rockets into Israel is probably unknowable. However, I have been reading the daily incident reports from the Gaza NGO Safety Office for 14 months, every day, and in that time only once before has Hamas claimed responsibility, also in retaliation for a targeted assassination. Israel's demand that Hamas stop the rocket attacks may not be possible to fulfill. If Israel destroys Hamas' ability to control Gaza, that will truly open the doors for many more extremist factions.
Elizabeth Vann, Ph.d
Brockton, MA
a few nights ago i heard an israeli spokesman state that israel is not an occupier in the territories because the land belongs to the jewish people. has israel in fact dropped the pretense of occupation for security sake and admitted that it intends to take all of the land?
it is a tragedy that israel has the military power to defend itself against armed nation states and uses that power on basically civillian populations with no capability for self defense. if America acted that way we would be pilloried in public opinion. instead israel acts as if it is above any law or standard of decency.
A lot of the nations in the Middle East are going to indulge their hatred as long as the world lasts. They've been at it off and on since the beginning of recorded history. In fact, I would guess that most of them don't even know what started it. They just know that hating the other side is just as natural as breathing.
And yet we think that we (meaning the USA and its followers) have all the answers. And we will probably get involved one more time in a conflict that is mostly based on protecting our oil access, and has nothing to do with our supposed ideals about democracy.
And most likely we will walk away eventually with a bloody nose, leaving a trail of blood behind. How many times must we repeat this scenario before we learn anything from it? We've had our noses bloodied several times since the Second World War.
I am surprised as well that the Palestinian views are not better represented on this panel...
One gets a balanced perspective in the European press. The view in Europe is that the Israeli actions are essentially pre-electoral tactics by the Likud government.
The US government is the only one supporting the Israeli position. Why?
The Israeli Ambassador just presented an amazingly dishonest image of the issues at hand... Pfff!
I agree with the one sided nature of your panel. I have never have seen you bring some one like Prof. Cole or Prof. Chomsky. It appears that NPR has become a voice of Israeli government. The Israeli ambassador conveniently ignored the fact that:
a) Gaza has been under an Israeli blockade; he insults informed readers when he says 'there is no blockade'. How about challenging that assertion?
b) This conflict started when Israeli killed a couple of unarmed civilian Palestinians on its border. Then when Hamas responded by a few rockets, they (Israelis killed the defense chief of Hamas)
Is it too much to expect balance from your show?
The Israelis have done this! They have the Palestinians in a concentration camp and the Israelis control every aspect of their lives even how much food and water they are "permitted" ! It is awful! If I were in the Palestinian situation, I would do whatever to gain my freedom!
The Israelis have been doing this for years and stealing Palestinian land for years! When are they going to stop this!
They "telephone" the Palestinians to "get out of the way"! Is that man kidding!!!
No one has raised a basic question: Apart from the question of whether the Israeli attacks were justified (I think not), was it wise to break off cease fire negotiations kill a senior Hamas leader and attack Gaza.
Lavon Affair:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair
The Lavon Affair refers to a failed Israeli covert operation, code named Operation Susannah, conducted in Egypt in the Summer of 1954. As part of the false flag operation,[1] a group of Egyptian Jews were recruited by Israeli military intelligence for plans to plant bombs inside Egyptian, American and British-owned targets. The attacks were to be blamed on the Muslim Brotherhood, Egyptian Communists, "unspecified malcontents" or "local nationalists" with the aim of creating a climate of sufficient violence and instability to induce the British government to retain its occupying troops in Egypt's Suez Canal zone.[2]
Some evidence that will never be reported on NPR. Evidence of bias.
King David Hotel :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_David_Hotel_bombing
Irgun bombing of British
The King David Hotel bombing was an attack carried out on 22 July 1946 by the militant right-wing Zionist underground organization the Irgun on the British administrative headquarters for Palestine, which was housed in the King David Hotel in Jerusalem.[1][2][3] 91 people of various nationalities were killed and 46 were injured.[4]
USS Liberty attacked by Israel:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident
The USS Liberty incident was an attack on a United States Navy technical research ship, USS Liberty, by Israeli Air Force jet fighter aircraft and Israeli Navy motor torpedo boats, on June 8, 1967, during the Six-Day War.[3] The combined air and sea attack killed 34 crew members (naval officers, seamen, two Marines, and one civilian), wounded 171 crew members, and severely damaged the ship.[4]
These events will not be covered on NPR. Nothing critical of Israel makes it on NPR.
I see they've added Nadia Bilbassy
There is verifiable history of Israel false flag attacks to advance its agenda as my last post showed.
There are new calls for a false flag attack to garner public support for Israel to attack Iran. With a history of deceit, Israel's stories are not believable.
http://www.businessinsider.com/top-researcher-suggests-israel-get-nastie...
Speaking at the WINEP policy forum luncheon on "How to Build US-Israeli Coordination on Preventing an Iranian Nuclear Breakout," Clawson (ironically) said that "if, in fact, the Iranians aren't going to compromise, it would be best if someone else started the war."
Before that Clawson listed all the conflicts in which the U.S. didn't become involved until they were attacked, emphasizing that a false flag was needed each time for conflict to be initiated.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=Se32hATeIvw
Israel lobbyist and deputy director for research at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy (WINEP), Patrick Clawson, suggests that a false flag attack is almost certainly needed to go to war with Iran, as initiation crisis has always depended on some kind of a single event, in many cases a false flag to justify the waging of war.
WINEP is a spin-off of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).
The statement was made at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy in response to a question related to America's options in case negotiations with Iran fail.
Dear Etaoin:
1) The proof is right in front of you - a rep from the Israeli govt. w/disproportionate time in the interview - no rep from the Palestinian govt. Aaron David Miller who acted as Israel's lawyer during the peace process by his own admission - and David Makovsky who works for a AIPAC spinoff think tank. Then there's Telhami whose a scholar not an advocate -- and to their credit they added Nadia Billbassy after my comment.
2) If you think one sided statements come from Palestinians - check the editorial page of the NYT, WPost, WSJ and almost all the staff writers who routinely promote one sided remarks. Then there's Congress who routinely votes unanimously to support Israel only and never to hold them accountable. Then there's the President who didn't take a single 'action' to promote Palestinian rights in his first four years, same as previous presidents.
3) Even when no rockets are fired Gaza is under occupation - no imports/exports, high unemployment/poverty, Israel has no problem shooting farmers in Gaza, shooting at children picking up gravel for money, and fisherman - who are bothering no one and violate no laws.
Finally, for someone who claims to have no problem criticizing both sides - you sure were one sided in your list above - not a word about the 40 year plus occupation.
Hamas intentionally targets civilians. Israel accidentally hits civilians as they attempt to take out the rockets that Hamas sends with the intention of killing Israeli citizens.
Israel started retaliating when they could no longer tolerate the 1000s of rocket attacks directed at "civilian populations with no capability for self defense". There isn't a single Israeli that can catch and defuse a rocket that is about to hit him.
I am not an Israeli sympathizer. In fact I am an atheist and I find their position on their right to the land as ludicrous, inane, stupid, unbelievable and sheer nonsense. But, there comes a point where you have to respond when you are attacked.
What???
You are saying that Israel intentionally locates and "shoots children picking up gravel for money..." Show me evidence of that please.
It's statements like that that inflame the situation. I agree totally with your second point about congress.
1) Israel has occupied Gaza and the West Bank for over 40 years - and routinely breaks ceasefires by assassinating Palestinians - like most recently.
2) Israel intentionally shoots farmers in Gaza, fisherman, and children picking up gravel for money. Dozens have been killed in the past several years - just check with any human rights org. This happens whether or not there is a ceasefire.
3) Israel fires ten times as many projectiles into Gaza far more devastating - into a densely packed population which causes far more casualties. No Israeli was killed by rocket fire this year until after this most recent episode.
Tom, I do not question your intent but you really need to research this a bit more. You will find that this round started with Israeli provocation. As far as Hamas rockets, what do you think the Israeli air raids and shelling are targeted at? There is no way air attacks are that precise; Palestinian deaths are all considered collateral damage!!! Also, a 'total' blockade for 40plus years!!
I too would do whatever to obtain my freedom. And I would soon come to realize that sending toy rockets into the Lions' Den isn't likely to obtain my freedom.
I agree with your perspective but sending random rockets into Israel with the sole intention of killing civilians is not going to improve the lot of the Palestinians. At least, Israel is targeting the source of the rockets; they are not intentionally killing civilians.
Here is the evidence from DCI-Palestine - they have pictures of most of the children who were shot.
http://www.dci-palestine.org/documents/urgent-appeal-ua-410-children-gra...
Had to update the death count from my last post:
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/20/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict....
After a night of sustained Israeli strikes by air and sea and a morning of rocket attacks on Israel, the Health Ministry here said on Monday that the Palestinian death toll in six days of conflict had risen to 91 with 700 wounded, including 200 children, as the assault ground on unrelentingly despite efforts toward a cease-fire.
Just stop the killing please. No one needs to die. There are enough resources for all to live peacefully.
"Just stop the killing please. No one needs to die. There are enough resources for all to live peacefully."
On that we can agree ... but
" the Palestinian death toll in six days of conflict had risen to 91 with 700 wounded, including 200 children"
When rockets are fired from civilian areas and militants then hide in schools and hospitals, what do you expect? That's what cowards do - and then complain about the civilian death toll.
Ads in the DC Metro read: In any war between the civilized man and the savage, support the civilized man. Support Israel Defeat Jihad.
Civilized man kills very efficiently. The civilized US government successfully killed thousands of savages in the conquest of the "savage" native American's land. The civilized Spanish wiped out scores of savage natives upon arriving to the new world. The ignorance of the past doesn't seem to have left us, unfortunately.
What a relief that the savages can only build rockets in their basements, while the civilized man has his rockets delivered from the US. The savage launches his rockets from the roofs of his prison (Gaza), while the civilized man flies overhead and drops his bombs from 20,000 feet.
You're right ecgberht: When rockets are fired from civilian areas and militants then hide in schools and hospitals, what do you expect? That's what cowards do - and then complain about the civilian death toll."
Those living in the concentration camp that is Gaza are "cowards." Thankfully, we have civilized men to kill those cowards by the dozens and their children, too. Rockets launched from Gaza that kill no one, are responded to with bombing "hospitals and schools" to what ends? To punish the children and infirmed for the sins of a minority. Come on ecgberht you can't even believe that. These attacks will make life more not less dangerous for Israel.
Looking at the guest list invited to discuss Israel's ongoing military attack against Palestine I am once again dismayed. Is this American public radio or Israeli news network?
Why is balance so obviously 'disproportionate' and biased ?
Americans hear routinely from one side of this issue--to the obvious exclusion of those with experience, information and insight about Palestine. The talking-head circuit and its ever ready spokespeople of lawyers, government officials & writers who are either Israeli, Zionist or lobbyists repeatedly reveal this glaring lack of balance.
This ongoing and obvious imbalance should be an embarrassment to an organization which prides itself as a source of information for the American people. If people continue to be ill informed here there is little chance that our government will ever be an effective tool or honest broker in any conflict.
Most of the positive feelings for Israel are due to the sympathy one feels for the Jewish people and their experiences during the holocaust. Jews, undoubtedly are among the most talented, prosperous, hard working people I have known. However, as an impartial observer of the politics of the middle east, and also an observer of the changing demographics of the US population( with more non white, non fundamentalist Christians coming into the mix), I feel, the sympathy one feels for Israel, and the blind support of it's policies by some in the US, will soon be replaced by a more nuanced approach, wherin the plight of the Palestians is noted and most fair minded people will speak up against Israel, for using it's immense military power ( albeit with the support of an even more powerful power..the US) against a people that are quite defenseless and more or less held in an open air prison. It is only a matter of time that things will begin to change.
Dear Jordan 88:
Well, now that the show has actually aired, I have to ask: Where was all the “pro Israel bias” you were convinced would be on display? With the exception of the Ambassador (who didn’t interact with the other guests, and who of course was representing a government, and thus was not necessarily expressing his own opinion), the rest were almost completely unanimous in their views (which hardly displayed the “bias” you insisted on).
(I say almost, because there were a few shades of difference, but they seemed to agree on most things. Although I was amused how most of the guests began the show by insisting Israel was in the strongest position and had the upper hand, yet by the end had decided it was Hamas that was in the “catbird seat”. Ah, the “wisdom” of the Commentariat and the Punditocracy.)
The point, as I’ve said many times before, is we should wait until a show actually airs before posting Comments about it. I mean, it’s always more impressive when one writes knowing what you’re talking about!
belewlaw on November 19, 2012 @ 6:47 am wrote: “The remainder of the panel, even including Shibley Telhami, is made up of voices that are uncritical of US/Israeli policies.”
Funny, once the show aired there was plenty of criticism of “US/Israeli policies”. Of course, there was also plenty of criticism of Hamas too. But I guess that was just an expression of “bias”.
emrvann2 on November 19, 2012 @ 8:13 am wrote: “Israel's demand that Hamas stop the rocket attacks may not be possible to fulfill. If Israel destroys Hamas' ability to control Gaza, that will truly open the doors for many more extremist factions.”
What’s that I hear? An “unbiased” Comment busy making excuses for Hamas! The Anti-Semites (sorry, “Anti-Zionists”) never disappoint. I suppose if one person here (besides myself) managed to be critical of both Hamas and Israel, I’d die of shock.
Meanwhile, I note that far from claiming they’re “powerless”, Hamas is busy taking credit for these attacks, and exploiting them for their own purposes.
More importantly, if we accept your (false) premise that Hamas is powerless to stop such attacks, why should Israel seek peace at all, or a cease fire? The logical conclusion from your assertion is that the only way to secure Israel from such attacks is to clear out Gaza completely!
And let me make clear: that’s something I hope won’t happen.