Chicago Teacher's Strike
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-09-12/chicago-teachers-strike
Chicago teachers on strike: How the union’s fight over merit pay and job security highlights a broader national struggle.
Guests
Diane Ravitch
author and professor at New York University
Rick Hess
resident scholar and director of education policy studies at the American Enterprise Institute
Andy Rotherham
co-founder of Bellwether Education, author of the weekly “School of Thought” column for TIME and blogger at Eduwonk.com
Adrian Fenty
former mayor of Washington, DC
Nancy Youssef
Middle East bureau chief, McClatchy Newspapers
Comments
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Kelly wrote:
"ecgberht" advocates a 'market-based' approach to education. But a 'market-based' approach is based on PROFIT. Schools are not designed to generate profit; they are designed to educate kids--our next generation of citizens. Education is a community benefit and it should be a community investment, funded and controlled by the community, not by some millionaire CEO and shareholders.
Correct. He does.
Your response is very appealing to the emotions, but decades of history with public education shows it to be a failure.
Why does Apple make money, Kelly? Why does Toyota do better than GM? How did Oracle come back from the dead?
Because they produce a better product. The for-profit schools that produce the best product will thrive. The others will fall by the wayside. That's how a market based system works, whether it's mobile phones, automobiles, computer software, or education.
Education reform needs to be done like yesterday. Just look at what our school system is producing. Graduates are no where near the level they need to be in order to enter the job market (considering what it is these days). Merit pay for teachers places the burden on them to fix a problem, which has many culpable players in it. Parents, school administrators, and let's not forget, THE STUDENT. The reason Johnny can't read, is because Johnny doesn't give a @#$%! And you want to tie someones livelihood to a bunch of derelict, dysfunctional, pot smoking, gang banger wanna bees? This is a huge problem that will require action on several fronts to turn it around. I'm sorry, but I have to agree with the teachers. They are only one player in this issue. What about the administrators, the parents, and the students themselves. How are we holding them accountable?
Currently the "profit" is supposed to be good standard test scores. Whether the teachers agree that it is the best thing or not is invalid. It is what they are being asked for. Give us good standard test scores and let us evaluate how well you do it. Why is it so difficult for the teachers to understand?
As with any other business, you give the customer what they want. In this case, the customer is the school system and they want good standard test scores. At some point in time, this may be deemed inadequate and the product they are being asked to produce will change. Until that time, do your job and if you are not doing it well, you will be replaced. Just like any other non-union job in the country. The infinite protection of the union has made teachers soft and complacent. Tie their pay to performance and things will change.
IndieLady7:
You are correct - formal IEPs are for those kids who have had specific diagnoses. BUT every child is assessed via standards individually and placed according to NEEDs - not just so much random sheep dip.
Nearly 50% of kids in at-risk schools fail to meet standards; serious action is required - public schools MUST take kids as they ARE not as parents/others think they are. You'd be amazed how much goes into assistance per child; e.g. districts send food home so kids have enough to eat. You'd be shocked to see how many come to school in poor health, bad nutrition, minus basic medical/dental/vision, adequate clothing/shoes, infested with parasites, pre-disposed to a culture of drugs & violence, often getting attention only in a crisis. In a class of 40 kids, personal attention is severely diminished.
No, parents are not all at fault or to blame; but bad teachers should be the EXCEPTION - should have been weeded out by administration long ago - not chosen in the first place. Teachers ARE HUMANs - managers must deal with human frailities, illnesses, family issues et al. There exists due process for removing anyone that starts declining - retraining and or removal - unions do NOT prevent that. Not everyone is suited to teaching or any other job for that matter.
Aren't administrators supposed to be THE evaluators ? Bad employees are usually a result of bad management - in business, education, the military, and politics.
Parents are often in dire straits, ill prepared to help educationally, developmentally, financially. If a parent is a teenager, dropout, overwhelmed with work, on drugs, can that parent know what's needed? Or help educate? Or even know what learning methods are? Best intentions notwithstanding, parenting is 99% seat-of-the-pants minus an owner's manual.
It still goes back to administration to design and maintain the curricula and the staff.
mrbvlo wrote:
"... let's not forget, THE STUDENT. The reason Johnny can't read, is because Johnny doesn't give a @#$%! And you want to tie someones livelihood to a bunch of derelict, dysfunctional, pot smoking, gang banger wanna bees? ... How are we holding them accountable?"
Well, it sure isn't by pushing them into the next grade whether they can read or not. I'd be in favor of "charter" reform schools for these kids. Let the parents use their voucher to ship them off to a school that can deal with them in stead of leaving them in "gen pop" when they can't even read. After a generation or so when kids see that in front of them, perhaps behavior will change.
The bottom line from the strike and for today's broadcast should have revealed one real truth:
"Standard" tests are anything but standard. What one district uses is NOT what some other uses and they often change their minds. Districts reject any form of national or international standards. Various groups have always rejected testing on a variety of criticisms - ethnic or cultural bias, improper analysis, geographic and political differences. And you heard the so-called "experts" on the panel disagree about what tests to use and whether they work or not.
A carpenter would never build anything using a rubber yardstick.
HonestAbe wrote:
Bad employees are usually a result of bad management - in business, education, the military, and politics.
----
Aren't the teachers the managers of the classroom?
I believe homeschooling is a viable alternative.
It's legal in all 50 states, and a parent does not need to be certified. It can be done is you have a passion and committment to the betterment of your child's education, and it wouldn't hurt to join a local homeschooling group for support and socialization. In terms of resources, if you have the money to buy a curriculum...fine. If not, there are FREE resources online--as well as public places to go on field trips--which help facilitate learning (i.e. library, zoo, museum, park). Kids can learn math, science, and language skills through doing things around the house (i.e. gardening, cooking, etc). What are your thoughts on this?
Our unions need to change but not dissolved. Tenure and pay raises based solely on seniority needs to change. I worked once as a teamster and saw job security and incompetence walk hand in hand. It doesn't have to be that way.
Our educational system, as we know it, is broken. It cannot be "fixed" by teaching in the same ways and expecting different results. We cannot put a bandaid on broken leg. How many of our "fixers" know that the basic system we use now was developed by Charlemagne over 1000 years ago?
How many of our "experts" have EVER taught the growing child? Human beings have an inner AND and an outer development. We ALL learn differently. (see Gardner's Seven Intelligences). Our teachers need new approaches to teaching that target the ever increasing number of children who do not learn in the same way as the children of the 50's. Waldorf Education employes many techniques that teach to different learning styles as well as incorporating the arts into the classroom. (See Columbia University's David Elkind's work--and the Alliance for Childhood). Waldorf Schools do not have a monopoly on these techniques. Every summer there are courses for public school teachers at two of the main training centers (NY and CA) in the US. Many of these techniques are not only FUN but help develop the still forming brain for what's next. It's a truly brilliant approach to learning (developed in 1919 with an incredible track record worldwide). The wheel does not have to be reinvented.
In addition, teachers (all teachers) need mentors, but especially the new teachers. I taught for many years and had it not been for my mentor, I would have given up after two. I've always worked hard, but teaching is the hardest job I ever had.
Besides all of the above, we need to pay our teachers what they are worth. We need to appeal to our best and brightest with an income level that appreciates that they
hold the future of our nation in their hands. Thank You.
I was dismayed to hear the stridency of tone in the mayor's voice, stridency that sounded like distain to me.
I retired from teaching after 33 years of work in the public schools and completely agree that teacher evaluations must improve and must be consequential. I believe that union contracts make it very difficult to fire a teacher but I also believe that principals, many principals, are not up to the task of effectively evaluating teachers.
Reform of the teacher evaluation process should be a piece of a comprehensive reform which comprises reformation of the evaluation process for principals, middle-managers, superintendents and school boards. Student success results from a system working together, and is not based solely on an individual group.
Just as an aside, to talk about an "average" class size is just silly. Neither the 40 kindergarteners in one class nor their teacher is helped by the fact that the special education teacher has 9 students. Every child needs a class size appropriate to his or her educational needs.
Yes, and who manages the teachers? They, too, make a difference.
The single most important factor in a student's success is the parent/parents.
I've know kids who've gone to inadequate schools, yet had great parenting, and they thrived. Some went on to become doctors and engineers.
I do believe that teachers should be evaluated, but they are not totally responsible for student learning.
What about parents? When half the parents don't show up for parent/teacher conferences regarding their own child, and those students never have their homework done and are not interested in learning, then what can a teacher do? Teachers can't force students to learn or even care.
Parents need to be held accountable for making sure their child is prepared to learn at school.
No Child Left Behind eliminated programs for Special Needs children, and put them in the regualar classrooms with teachers who are not trained to help them. It is very common for teachers to have children with autism, learning and behavioral disabilities, and physical disabilities in their classroom of 30 or more children. Teachers aids have been laid off in many school systems due to budget cuts and so one teacher must cope with multiple levels of ability in their classroom. How is that conducive to learning?
And No Child Left Behind also made it mandatory for all the Special Needs students' test scores to be included in the overall school scores. That was not the case before No Child Left Behind and it now makes the public think that test scores have dropped dramatically over the last 10 years -- which for typical children is not necessarily the case.
Classroom learning has become difficult due to many factors, including parents who don't care about their child's education and children who know their parents don't care, undertrained teachers who do not know how to teach Special Needs children, and loss of teacher aids in the classroom.
Teachers cannot be blamed for factors out of their control. Yes, teachers should be held accountable -- but so should parents and administrators. Why isn't that part of the conversation?
Wendy
(Educator from a family of educators, including a teacher's union president)
They want to use the standardized test to evaluate the teachers but the tests don't count against the students grade. So the students don't have any skin in the game. These tests need to count in the students grades if they are going to count against the teachers.
The Diane Rehm Show normally has a fair balance of people on both sides of the issue, but this felt like unbalanced and unfair. Diane Ravich had few opportunities to respond to the claims put forth by the other panelists. As a faithful listener, I was truly disappointed today. Please invite Diane Ravich back and give her a fair shot at participating in the discussion.
For Profit K-12 schools in my location can claim to produce a better product because they do not accept any children with special needs or children who are under prepared from economically challenged families.
Let's see what their test scores are when they have to accommodate children with learning and behavioral disabilities, and include those test scores in their overall total -- just like public schools do.
@ecgberht, check out The History of education in America on YouTube. This solidifies my point in terms where the modern education system comes from in terms of teaching students to be obedient and based on communist/marxist thought.
Wow, teachers and their proponents are certainly good at deflecting the idea of them being held accountable. I run a factory with 145 employees. Employees with: Drug problems? I have those. Learning disabilities? Got em. From broken homes. Got those. Behavioral problems? Those too. On mood altering drugs? yep. Disintrested in their work? of course. ADD, ADHD? oh yeah. They account for 85 - 90% of my work force. 75% did not graduate high school. I turn over 40% of my workforce every year in rural Northern NH, it gets no better. If I went to the owner of the company and told him I didn't want to be held accountable for missing shipments because my workforce was difficult to work with, I would be bounced into the street immediately after he stopped laughing. I AM HELD ACCOUNTABLE, so I figure out a way to make it work. Teachers AND administrators should be also.
As wonderful as Ms Rehm’s program is always, this topic—close to me and my family of educators—always gets me incensed. So much to say--but to pick one aspect… Mr. Fenty is so, so, SO off-base! Does he expect teachers to take the place of parents; usurping their role when their child is in the classroom? Would HE stand for being supplanted in that way? Not all parents are perfect, but teachers are not there to replace them.
Children are NOT a commodity; not an empty vessel, eagerly waiting to be filled. It is NOT that “poor” children cannot learn. BUT they are, as are affluent children, indeed a product of family and circumstance. They cannot learn when they’re perennially hungry, or unsure of where they’ll sleep tonight. And I see far too much of this. Higher education is an absurd luxury in the face of daily survival.
Teaching is not factory assembly work. The goal is education not just passing the test. YES, more can be done by school systems to ensure that employees are following a plan of educational progress. They don’t. The same impatience occurs as does so frequently in business. “Plans” fall by the wayside before any change or improvement information—including tests—can reflect success or failure. BUT so-called, mechanistic “objective criteria”, essentially threatening teachers with resultant test scores, put no emphasis on the quality of all the contributing parts. Teachers alone cannot be held responsible for a less-than-perfect product created from inconsistent and imperfect ingredients. Teachers are not magicians. And if you see magical results be assured that you’re seeing just that: a magic act.
As a former teacher/school librarian with 30+ years of experience in education I would like to comment on the entire issue of school reform. Under the current "reform" efforts, teachers are being asked to perform as a Superperson - trying to undo years o, dare I say failure, in one year and having your credibility as en educator being held accountable for all the children endure. I am currently working on my doctorate in education and am focusing on school readiness issues. This is the problem with underperforming children and schools. For years, preschool and early childhood education has been neglected with more monies being poured into the upper grades with the belief that these early years were just babysitting. Brain research now concludes that the first 5 years are the most crucial. Many educators have postulated that if the results of poverty (i.e. school readiness issues) are not addressed by the end of the third grade, the task to lift these kids to a acceptable level becomes extremely difficult. We also know that the lower test scores are a result of those kids that lack the skills necessary to function at appropriate levels and these kids, for the most part, come from low-income families. If we want school reform to work, we need to address the issues of poverty and untie the hands of the teachers, particularly those teaching the very young children, to do their job. Let us address the issues of school readiness if we really want to reform education. I fear that this is an unpopular position as we then need to address issues of poverty and we know that supporting social programs tends to be unpopular among many politicians and policy makers.
You have the "luxury" of a 40% turnover. And please believe that that is said without any intended impertinent sarcasm. I, too, have had to manage all kinds of employees. Yet, public schools are supposed to "fix", with students, the things you listed AND impart knowledge to boot. Here they are required by law to keep the "problems" and are penalized when those who just will not cooperate drop out without ever graduating. Does your employer penalize you for those 40%? After all, new employee hiring is far more expensive than retention. Are you held accountable to fix their problems AND make those shipments? If you cannot make the 40% successful in the workplace where their livelihood is at stake (and no fault is intended or implied) why would you think other prepared, professional, and knowledgeable people like yourself could do better with that 75% who refused to learn and graduate? It's not a parallel issue.
As usual we were subjected to politically connected "experts" on the subject of public education. Have any of these folks ever taught? I seriously doubt it. Here is another certainty about modern life: Whenever there is a convocation regarding education and education reform, there will be NO teachers at the table. Organizations like the "American Enterprise Institute" will be well represented - ladies and gents dressed beautifully and with so many complaints about how we are not running schools like efficient businesses. As a retired educator I can assure you that teachers only hear the word "professional" when there is an "un" placed in front of the word. True professionals have a say in how they conduct their careers - teachers never do.
As usual we were subjected to politically connected "experts" on the subject of public education. Have any of these folks ever taught? I seriously doubt it. Here is another certainty about modern life: Whenever there is a convocation regarding education and education reform, there will be NO teachers at the table. Organizations like the "American Enterprise Institute" will be well represented - ladies and gents dressed beautifully and with so many complaints about how we are not running schools like efficient businesses. As a retired educator I can assure you that teachers only hear the word "professional" when there is an "un" placed in front of the word. True professionals have a say in how they conduct their careers - teachers never do.
Bill is confused. Very confused. The problems he encounters in his job (and I am sure it isn't an easy job) he lays out carefully for us. But he is describing the problems teachers face with their STUDENTS. Teachers cannot fire students. To go back on his factory example - what if he could not fire his problem workers AND they were the ones who, at the end of the year, could decided whether or not he could keep his job? When a teacher gives the all-important test to troubled students, many of whom make cute bubble patterns on the answer sheets and are finished in two minutes, the are at the mercy of the "test results." Will those results ALWAYS show what has actually been accomplished in the school year? Not always.
"Myshelle wrote:
I was a teacher at a very poor school district for over 25 years. I have seen the resources for helping children dwindle away over the years. Schools have taken away resource services of all kinds. Students are NEVER held back when they need to be and are passed on to the next grades.
September 12, 2012 - 10:52 am"
I agree that the Poor almost always get short shrift in Education and almost everything else, but holding kids back is not a viable strategy.
By the time I was in the 7th Grade there were kids, bigger and stronger than the Teachers, who if they weren't Bullies, slouched around the School waiting until they could quit the School and its Daily humiliations.
If a kid doesn't make the passing grade, then S/He needs to be fixed. Hardly one Child in a Thousand is truly uneducatable, but as long as the System fusses over and coddles the Anointed kids of the Junior Elites, there won't be any help for the kids that need it and would benefit from it.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
"mrbvlo wrote:
Education reform needs to be done like yesterday. Just look at what our school system is producing. Graduates are no where near the level they need to be in order to enter the job market (considering what it is these days). Merit pay for teachers places the burden on them to fix a problem, which has many culpable players in it. Parents, school administrators, and let's not forget, THE STUDENT. The reason Johnny can't read, is because Johnny doesn't give a @#$%! And you want to tie someones livelihood to a bunch of derelict, dysfunctional, pot smoking, gang banger wanna bees?
September 12, 2012 - 11:57 am"
You need to get out more mrbvlo.
If you want to see the real "Johnny (or MacKenzie) doesn't give a @#$%!...bunch of derelict, dysfunctional, pot smoking, gang banger wanna bees", go out to the Upscale Burbs.
Yet in spite of all the rhetoric those Brats learn enough to get them into the Colleges that they crave and that Mommy and Daddy can afford.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
Wouldn't it be ironic if the Americans killed at Benghazi were murdered by Mr Ghadaffy's dear Friend George HW Bush's School of the Americas trained Assassins??
Perhaps even killed by part of the 20 Tons of Plastique that Old Man Bush ordered Edwin Wilson to sell to Ghadffy??
For a Definition of irony, ask Eggie.
For example- Old Man Bush's Father, Prescott was prosecuted for Trading With the Enemy (Nazis) in 1944 (While our Boys were being slaughtered by the Nazis).
Eggie defended the Bushes by saying that Prescott wasn't in sympathy with the Nazis, he was just doing it for the Money.
That's irony.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
McChaun wrote:
"Eggie defended the Bushes by saying that Prescott wasn't in sympathy with the Nazis, he was just doing it for the Money."
McChaun, that is a lie and you know it. And just so everyone else does too, here is what I actually said ... word for word.
"OK, let's see
"The Industrialists (false), Bankers (false) and Prescott Bush (patently false and absolutely disproven) sat at the right hand of Mr Hitler and made fortunes with their use of Slave Labor and stolen commodities."
"And hunted down and killed Jews and other Socialists. "
Also false.
"attempting to rewrite History."
That would be you, mchaun
Do you ever post anything supported by fact?"
and ...
(from Wiki)
"Bush was one of seven directors (including W. Averell Harriman) of the Union Banking Corporation, an investment bank that operated as a clearing house for many assets and enterprises held by German steel magnate Fritz Thyssen. In July 1942 the bank was suspected of holding gold on behalf of Nazi leaders. A subsequent government investigation disproved those allegations, but confirmed the Thyssens' control, and in October 1942 the United States seized the bank under the Trading with the Enemy Act and held the assets for the duration of World War II.
According to the journalist Joe Conason Bush's involvement with UBC was purely commercial and that he was not a Nazi sympathizer. The Anti-Defamation League and historian Herbert Parmet agreed with that assessment."
I believe that is everything I have ever said about Prescott Bush here.
This is one of my favorite from you from last November:
"Their Grandfather, Prescott, allegedly prosecuted for Trading With the Enemy during WWII (Treason?), didn't live long enough to participate in this one or he'd have been on the list as too."
"allegedly prosecuted"?! He was either prosecuted or he wasn't. Hint: HE WASN'T!
As I have said before, as bad a case of Bush Derangement Syndrome as I have ever seen.
"ecgberht wrote:
Kelly wrote:
"that is the TEACHER'S fault????? "
The idea that you can't identify bad teachers and that the only way to evaluate is on the basis of their students' performance on standarized tests is ridiculous. Over populations of students and over time and over the longterm outcomes for those students it is possible to identify the poor teachers.
The problem is getting rid of them. You can't.
See Michelle Rhee in DC.
September 12, 2012 - 10:45 am"
Well, well, another of Poor, Poor Eggie's own unique Realities.
Michelle Rhee fired 800 Teachers and countless Principals during her brief Tenure.
But Hey, thanks for the tip, I did "See Michelle Rhee in DC", and WOW!
Except for her results that she flatly refuses to document, she has had to retract nearly every one of her "Improvement" Stats. Liar???
Like you, Eggie, she is incapable of Linear Thought, but unlike you she will, at least, occasionally (grudgingly) sort of, by indirection, admit she was wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michelle_Rhee
http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2011-03-28-1Aschooltesting28_CV_N...
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
mchaun wrote:
Eggie defended the Bushes by saying that Prescott wasn't in sympathy with the Nazis, he was just doing it for the Money.
Did you say this, you lying Psychopath, or did you not?
"According to the journalist Joe Conason Bush's involvement with UBC was purely commercial and that he was not a Nazi sympathizer"
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com