Understanding Paul Ryan's Budget Plan
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-08-15/understanding-paul-ryans-budget-plan
Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney’s selection of Paul Ryan as his running mate has led to new interest in the Wisconsin congressman’s budget. In its latest form, the Ryan plan changes Medicare from a system of guaranteed payments for seniors to one that uses “premium support” credits. These vouchers may be used to purchase private insurance or to join traditional Medicare. The Ryan budget also cuts Medicaid, keeps the Bush tax cuts and streamlines the federal tax code. Critics say it will end Medicare as we know it. Supporters say reform is necessary to save the program from bankruptcy. Diane and guests discuss the Paul Ryan budget plan and what it means for the future of federal entitlement programs.
Guests
Jared Bernstein
senior fellow at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, and former chief economist and economic policy adviser for Vice President Joe Biden.
Mary Agnes Carey
senior correspondent for Kaiser Health News.
Grace-Marie Turner
president of the Galen Institute, a research group focusing on free-market health care reform and tax policy.
Damian Paletta
reporter for The Wall Street Journal.
Comments
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Ecgberht wrote:
"His father died of a heart attack in bed where Ryan found him at the age of 16."
Whoa, you're kidding me, you don't know about the family business? Ryan Construction? I expected better from you, sir. He's the heir to Ryan Construction. His is one of the wealthiest families in Wisconsin. His grandfather started the business and made $$$ from govt contracts paving roads. This is WHY there's no sad story about his mother/family struggling after his father died.
I can't believe you did NOT know this! Someone else, sure, but you? From your comments in the past I thought you were more up on things. Don't believe ME-- google it!
Partisan Politics wrote: People on average can expect to get three times back of what they have put into medicare. Social security is now also in the red mostly because Obama champion of the downtrodden has reduced payroll taxes.
On average? What average? From when to when? You can calculate averages all day long and all you'll have is averages. What do you NOT understand about more than $481,000 paid in SO FAR to SS/Medicare? And we're under 55, still working, and still paying IN! We're just 2 people in this huge generation, we're working people and I'm sure we aren't the only ones who have paid in that kind of $. DO the math, please. PLEASE, this is not a hard concept!
With SS now capped at approx $110,000/yr, multiply $110,000 of earned income (and NO, these days this is NOT alot of money) by 15.3%. Now multiply by 2 people working and paying in and you get $30,600/yr PLUS an additional 1.45% on all EARNED income over $110,000. Now do this for say, 15 years and you get $459,000. And yeah, we've been working a LOT longer than 15 yrs. Again, this is NOT a hard concept. THIS is why I urge everyone to go to the ss website and print out their ss earnings statement.
What-- are you trying to say my husband and I will get to collect $1.5 million from SS? Seriously? And stop with the 'wildly uninformed' insults, it betrays your insecurity in what you think you know.
Correction: Oy, it's not 30,600/yr it's 33660/yr, over 15 yrs it's 504,900, even higher. Was doing the math on 100K cap (don't I wish).
"Whoa, you're kidding me, you don't know about the family business? Ryan Construction? "
I knew about Ryan Construction. It's in the same Wiki article.
Congressman Ryan was not in the family business, however. He's much more of a self-made guy than a trust-fund baby. In fact, his father was not a part of the business either. You can read about that here:
http://www.ryancentral.com/history.html
You will find that neither Congressman Ryan nor his father were involved in the family business.
That's why he flipped burgers and worked summers for Oscar Meyer - and not in grand-daddy's business. The family was not destitute when his father died. No question about that. But to say that "He comes from extreme multi-generational wealth" does not paint an accurate picture. There is no evidence that it trickled down to him.
JaneFact wrote: "wildly uninformed' insults"
Yes you are wildly uninformed, did you even look at the link I gave you, obviously not. Here it is again. I have no way of knowing what you paid into medicare but on average the typical recipient will receive three times more than they put in. The system is tens of trillions of dollars underfunded. PLEASE, this is not a hard concept, your refusal to accept the obvious "betrays your insecurity in what you think you know"
By the way if you really did pay in those amounts with your FICA taxes your income must be very high and it clearly puts you in the upper income levels. So you claim to be very worried about the Ryan Plan when you obviously have the means to pay your own way a buy any insurance coverage you desire. You are not being honest in any way on any topic that I can determine.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/02/12/us/relying-on-government-b...
Oh-Kay Partisan Pol, I know you're either much older than I am, you've got yours and just want interest rates to go up so you can park your $ in CDs, and the rest of us be damned. Or you're much younger than I am, you think the "impact" on you having to pay your 7.65% is the really big story, you're angry because you're broke and you think if SS/Med gets killed off you won't have to pay your 7.65% anymore. I'm guessing older.
Stop w the tax tantrum and while you're at it, stop referring to yourself as American, cuz last I heard, stiffing people out of what they've paid for is un-American. That's what you're advocating, plain and simple, because whatever your situation, you've determined that that's what will be better for you you you.
It's greed and ignorance like yours that's taking this country down. You clearly BELIEVE you know. it. all and have absolutely no interest in FACTS that conflict with your BELIEFS. Go back to watching Fox-y.
ecgberht wrote:
McChaun wrote:
"Wow!!!! Straw Men upon Straw Men upon Straw Men!!!"
Still waiting for you to name ONE instance from all my posts. One specific instance. Hint: I did not refute any positions of Ferdnam.
You like to use the term "straw man", but you still don't know what it means, McChaun.
"In a nut shell, SS Bonds will be redeemed just like any other Government obligation."
With what, McChaun?
August 15, 2012 - 4:14 pm"
The SS Bonds will be redeemed with the same stuff all Government obligations are redeemed- MONEY!
--------
"ecgberht wrote:
Here, let me refresh
your memory:
"To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a
proposition by replacing it with a superficially similar yet
unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without
ever having actually refuted the original position."
lyleoross wrote:
"The notion proposed in the interview that Ryan is well informed, especially about budget issues, is directly commented on by Paul Krugman who points out that none of what Ryan says makes sense."
"Paul Krugman? The "Nobel Prize Winner" who said that the stimulus which wasted $1T wasn't ... BIG enough?!"
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
PP, I see, so you're a Communist. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, right? You're sure that we can 'more than afford to pay our own way,' therefore we don't deserve to get what we've paid for over more than 38 yrs of work (and counting)! Really? Wow, you most definitely are NOT an American. Well be careful what you wish for, baby, cuz when means testing kicks in, you may be suprised who is deemed to be "rich" and can therefore 'more than afford to pay their own way,' regardless of age. I'm off.
JaneFact wrote: "You clearly BELIEVE you know. it. all and have absolutely no interest in FACTS that conflict with your BELIEFS'
That's you my dear. I gave you the facts through the link. You offered nothing but shrill commentary based on nothing except the tiny bubble that you live in.
JaneFact wrote: "I see, so you're a Communist. From each according to his ability, to each according to his need, right?"
Wrong, you come here describing yourself as a victim, obviously that is not the case.
FYI......"ad hominem" comments are those which attempt to refute the statements of another by disparaging the person who made those statements instead of the validity of the statements themselves. e.g. Using derogatory names or labels, insulting one's personal characteristics (either real or imagined), using ethnic or racial references, and slurs about one's character or level of learning or intelligence.
By the way, any first year latin student could tell you that it literally means "to the man" i.e. toward the person (not to the point). It means the person using an ad hominem attack is diverting away from the actual issues.
Merely count the posts per person.....and count the times the posts focus on wording or the poster rather than the poster's comment itself.
Lay on, Monte! .....with vigor.
Well done!
'"Paul Krugman? The "Nobel Prize Winner" who said that the stimulus which wasted $1T wasn't ... BIG enough?!"
Paul Krugman is hardly breaking from consensus of respected economists and significant bipartisan studies.
Actually, in all the bi-partisan discussions at NPR I can recall, this was one of the few areas of agreement on the face. But I'm sure all agree, the details do warrant discussion.
"80 percent of economic experts surveyed by the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business agreed that the stimulus got the unemployment rate lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been otherwise. Only 4 percent disagreed."
"The CBO concluded that the stimulus added as many as 3.3 million jobs during the second quarter of 2010, and it may have kept us from lapsing back into recession."
In the Affordable Care Act the savings are at the delivery end. This was mentioned in the show. As a nurse, information technology specialist and caregiver to a member of my family, I couldn't agree more that this is the only place we will find savings in healthcare. There is so much potential for improving care and decreasing cost at the delivery end and all it will take is smart people willing and able to care out side the box. There are no savings to be had at the insurance end of things and it is magical thinking trying to squeeze these savings out while imagining we can maintain any level of care. It will take bold doctors, nurses and even computers to reduce healthcare costs. Shifting costs away from the taxpayer and back to the taxpayer will not improve anything.
Appreciate the factualness Jared Bernstein brought to the panel, and informative commentary by Oldbrit in particular.
What people keep saying is there's some "magic" you can do, to smooth out the wrinkles in a small suite of clothes to fit a bigger person.
This is why our country is failing economically, completely cockeyed thinking all over the place, that no one challenges.
McChaun, simply repeating yourself doesn't make your point.
I already posted the analysis of this exchange.
"lyleoross relies on the word and bona fides of Paul Krugman that the Ryan budget won't work. I merely pointed out that in doing so, he is leaning on a rotten stick. lyleoross gives no other specifics but to say it is silly and "won't work". It's his whole argument."
That is not a strawman argument - it simply demolishes the underpinnings of lyleoross argument which is the bona fides of Paul Krugman. Now if I had said, "Krugman? Oh lyleoross, you're always quoting liberal economists and everybody knows they're always wrong", THAT would be a strawman argument.
Abe, thanks for the definition of "ad hominem".
I repeat:
"Pointing out someone's ignorance, when they are truly ignorant about a subject matter is not an "ad hominem attack". "You're a doody head" is an ad hominem attack. "You are ignorant about Medicare, Medicaid, and the Ryan plan" is not."
It's simply a statement of fact about the knowledge of the other party on the subject matter - ESPECIALLY when that ignorance has just been profoundly demonstrated.
"Merely count the posts per person.....and count the times the posts focus on wording or the poster rather than the poster's comment itself."
I'll leave that to you. Then you can provide examples of what you THINK are ad hominem attacks. You're going to believe what you want to beieve about posters that disagree with you. The fact that you disagree with someone does not make their arguments ad hominem. Sorry.
JSawyer wrote:
"80 percent of economic experts surveyed by the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business agreed that the stimulus got the unemployment rate lower at the end of 2010 than it would have been otherwise. Only 4 percent disagreed."
Well, without stipulating as to the validity of that sample, do you not see that it says NOTHING about the size appropriateness of the stimulus?
"The CBO concluded that the stimulus added as many as 3.3 million jobs during the second quarter of 2010, and it may have kept us from lapsing back into recession."
Do you not see that says NOTHING about the size appropriateness of the stimulus?
ecgberht wrote:
McChaun, simply repeating yourself doesn't make your point.
I already posted the analysis of this exchange.
"lyleoross relies on the word and bona fides of Paul Krugman that the Ryan budget won't work. I merely pointed out that in doing so, he is leaning on a rotten stick. lyleoross gives no other specifics but to say it is silly and "won't work". It's his whole argument."
That is not a strawman argument - it simply demolishes the underpinnings of lyleoross argument which is the bona fides of Paul Krugman. Now if I had said, "Krugman? Oh lyleoross, you're always quoting liberal economists and everybody knows they're always wrong", THAT would be a strawman argument.
August 15, 2012 - 10:04 pm
First of all, You excised the actual exchange--
**lyleoross wrote:
"The notion proposed in the interview that Ryan is well informed, especially about budget issues, is directly commented on by Paul Krugman who points out that none of what Ryan says makes sense."**
***"Paul Krugman? The "Nobel Prize Winner" who said that the stimulus which wasted $1T wasn't ... BIG enough?!"**
"I merely pointed out that in doing so, he is leaning on a rotten stick."
The only thing you pointed out was that Krugman, Nobel Prize, stimulus etc...
"lyleoross gives no other specifics but to say it is silly and "won't work". It's his whole argument."
lyleoross merely quoted Krugman saying that the Plan made no sense.
"That is not a strawman argument - it simply demolishes the underpinnings of lyleoross argument which is the bona fides of Paul Krugman."
lyleoross merely quoted Krugman saying that the Plan made no sense.
One of the symptoms of your disease is the inability to distinguish between what you actually say and what you may have meant or thought or wish you had said.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
Privatizing Social Security and Medicare would be like entrusting your health and retirement to Bernie Madoff or Enron. Privatization benefits the wealthy and hurts the working class, middle class, and poor. Romney and Ryan are multi-millionaires and work for the ultra rich who are interested in cutting taxes for themselves and cutting programs for everyone else. It's not that complicated.
mchuan wrote:
"Blah, blah, blah, ... One of the symptoms of your disease is the inability to distinguish between what you actually say and what you may have meant or thought or wish you had said"
One of the symptoms of your low intelligence is your inability to read for comprehension.
Oh ... and also to post falsehoods like, "lyleroross merely quoted Krugman saying that the Plan made no sense".
And I quote ...
"BTW - The notion proposed in the interview that Ryan is well informed, especially about budget issues, is directly commented on by Paul Krugman who points out that none of what Ryan says makes sense. Ryan proposes solutions without telling how to accomplish those ends. He hasn't crunched numbers because if he had, he would know what he is proposing won't work. How is it that your guests don't understand this and think Ryan is smart? Me thinks they are biased."
So lyleoross doesn't actually "quote" Krugman at all! He merely reports what Krugman is alleged to have said with no sourcing.
So the sum total of lyleoross's argument is, "Krugman said so".
Therefore pointing out that lyleoross is depending on Krugman's historically unreliable analysis (i.e. the size of the stimulus), is not "attacking the straw man", it is removing the underpinnings of his post.
As I said, mchaun, you still don't grasp the principle of the "straw man" argument.
John Doe wrote: "Romney and Ryan are multi-millionaires and work for the ultra rich who are interested in cutting taxes for themselves and cutting programs for everyone else. It's not that complicated."
Incredibly irrational! Romney donates a considerable amount of money to charities that puts Obama and Biden to shame.
The following are a couple examples of ad hominem statements:
"...you are a low-level thinking partisan hack"
"Sheeple like you..."
Using such terms neither reinforces a rational argument nor the reputation of the one using such phrases, much less the tenor of the site where they are employed. Actually, determining whether a statement is accurate or not on the basis of one's personal opinion of the person who made that statement is tenuous at best; in fact that is merely parsing the line between libel and slander.
Ecgberht:
So the connection to Ryan Construction was in the wiki entry but you chose to hide it, what, hoping I/other people didn't already know about it? Then you reply with the Ryan Co website link... why? Hoping to pass that off as an objective 3rd party source of information?
Why? Is this sport to you? Whose payroll are you on, who is paying you to spread disinformation and obscure the truth? Does doing this make you feel good about yourself? What's in this for you? Money? Lower tax rates? Higher CD rates?
Shame on you.
Partisan Politics:
Repeating the same thing over and over and trying to put me on the defensive won't work, this isn't Fox-y and you're not Bill O'Reilly.
You're angry because you know I know more than you do and because your lies-n-shoutdown approach isn't working.
You need to change your name to Tantrum Politics.
Fool me once wrote:
John Doe wrote: "Romney and Ryan are multi-millionaires and work for the ultra rich who are interested in cutting taxes for themselves and cutting programs for everyone else. It's not that complicated."
Incredibly irrational! Romney donates a considerable amount of money to charities that puts Obama and Biden to shame.
Did you mean this as an ironic response? What is irrational about John Doe's statement? R and R are in fact wealthy, and they themselves have stated that they want to cut taxes and cut programs. So... what's irrational about that statement? Do you know the actual definition of 'irrational?' (Hint: it does NOT mean anything or anyone you don't like or agree with.)
Is this really the best you can do?
Hey, HonestAbe and mchaun, listen up. This is a good example of the straw man attack.
"JaneFact wrote:
Ecgberht:
So the connection to Ryan Construction was in the wiki entry but you chose to hide it, what, hoping I/other people didn't already know about it? Then you reply with the Ryan Co website link... why? Hoping to pass that off as an objective 3rd party source of information?
Why? Is this sport to you? Whose payroll are you on, who is paying you to spread disinformation and obscure the truth? Does doing this make you feel good about yourself? What's in this for you? Money? Lower tax rates? Higher CD rates?
Shame on you."
Oh, and Jane, I didn't "hide" anything. In fact, Ryan's grandfather's construction business in which neither the Congressman nor his father played any part was irrelevant. And if you doubt the veracity of the History page of the Ryan Construction Co. website, then provide a source that talks about their involvement in Grandpa's business, 'k?
You stated that Congressman Ryan comes from "multi-generational wealth" based on Grandpa Ryan's Construction business. That's simply false.
HonestAbe wrote:
"The following are a couple examples of ad hominem statements:
"...you are a low-level thinking partisan hack"
"Sheeple like you..."
Using such terms neither reinforces a rational argument nor the reputation of the one using such phrases ...."
You are quite right! My first impulse was to go digging through your old posts to find same, but that would only be justifying bad behavior with other bad behavior so I will demur.
In my defense, those particular attacks came from a single post and were born of EXTREME frustration with the inanity of the original poster, and even that aside, in post after post, after post, I try to exercise restraint. (I actually learned the term "sheeple" from a leftie on this mb).
All that being said, however, you are quite correct on this one, and I'll try to do better.
Ecgberht WROTE: You stated that Congressman Ryan comes from "multi-generational wealth" based on Grandpa Ryan's Construction business. That's simply false.
FACTS:
Paul Ryan IS an heir to Ryan Construction. Paul Ryan, his family, his wife, his wife's family are all WEALTHY. Being wealthy does NOT in and of itself make ANYone:
Bad,
Incompetent,
Arrogant, or
Stupid.
Being wealthy makes you UNAWARE of what it is like to have nowhere from which to get $ to pay your bills if you lose your job, run through your savings, and still can't find another job.
NO one has control over what kind of family they are born in to. However, those who aspire to lead a nation of mostly average, nonwealthy working people, but by virtue of their birth have NO idea what it is like to BE an average, nonwealthy, working person, would be advised to find OUT what it's like BEFORE attempting to lead that nation.
Generally speaking, you will NOT find out what it is like to be an average, nonwealthy, working person by spending your ENTIRE ADULT LIFE working FOR and IN the US Congress, as has PAUL RYAN.
You know this, you understand this, you just refuse to admit this because all you care about is getting higher CD rates under Romney/Ryan.
These facts are INCONVENIENT, which is why Fox-y et al are doing everything they can to SUPPRESS these FACTS.