Andrew Delbanco: "College: What It Was, Is, and Should Be"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-07-12/andrew-delbanco-college-what-it-was-and-should-be
Princeton University campus, Princeton, N.J.
Photo: Princeton University, Office of Communications
The traditional four-year college experience is in danger of becoming a thing the past. As more students graduate with staggering debt and fewer job prospects, many are questioning the value of a college degree. College is becoming a place where a growing number of students go to gain credentials. It used to be a place where young people discovered their passions and tested ideas with the help of teachers and peers. Andrew Blabanco says that kind of experience remains central to America’s democratic process. He and Diane discuss why he believes a liberal arts education still matters.
Guests
Andrew Delbanco
the Mendelson Family Chair of American Studies and the Julian Clarence Levi Professor in the Humanities at Columbia University.
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Read An Excerpt
Excerpted from "College: What it Was, Is, and Should Be" by Andrew Delbanco. Copyright © 2012 by Princeton University Press. Reprinted by permission.
Comments
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Liberal arts, really, how about teaching students in disciplines that will allow them to be successful members of society instead of having them 'Occupy' and complain about no jobs in ghost stories. If you are serious about an education then get one but don't make a mockery of the system and the particular institution you attend by getting a degree in the unemployable arts. Progress is driven by science and engineering, humanities by and large exist for the sole purpose of self propagation. Philosophy for example has never created or advanced anything, and it is taught simply to train more philosophers but creates no actual value. Therefore federal/state taxes dollars should never be wasted on it. People need to realize that just because you can do something doesn't mean it is a good idea to actually do it. You for instance can legally drink a gallon of whiskey every night, but you're a complete bonehead if you do. Further more the requirement of certain humanities classes, for a well rounded education is an artificial construct. I'm fairly certain my employer or potential employers couldn't care less if I have any training poetry, or extinct languages.
Also memorizing the prologue to Canterbury Tales in Middle English has never been of even the slightest benefit to me. ARRRRRRRGGGGGGGHHHHHH Wake up people, if we all worked hard in REAL jobs we would all be better off and we wouldn't have to hear over privileged whiners complain they can't afford their college loans because they owe $100000 on a degree in Music Therapy, or some other useless blather, that has made them uniquely qualified to work part-time at Walmart.
You know....I actually partially agree with you on this one. There are too many useless degrees running around out there. And there are hundreds of unscrupulous institutions out there vying for student loan money to educate the unsuspecting in degrees that have no value.
However, how do you explain all the other "meaningfully degreed" folks who cannot find work at present.... and they are legion!
Maybe it's American employers who don't want to pay them and would prefer to hire from countries where they can pay pennies on the dollar.
mnemecek,
This probably won't cut any ice with you but I finished up a 42+year career in software development, including the co-ownership of several small businesses along the way. We did lots of highly technical tasks including certified PC repairs, mainframe, midframe, and middleframe systems, multiple strains of complex database usage, and consulted with Fortune 500 companies on software/programming methods.......even teaching "structured snake oil" in universities and seminars along the way.
My background? A degree in English literature.......and my partner in most of that work had a Masters in English. It turns out that having some Middle English and other language facility was a major boost in doing computer languages and many other techie situations. Wud ye kiss mein wif before mein een and scad me wi pudding bree?
For some time now these institutes of higher education have been leaning toward what mnemecek wants. The imbalance between funding for the "unemployable arts" and the "progress driven" sciences is obvious anywhere you look. I believe it's more complicated than that black and white picture.
I could give a lengthy defense of philosophy, but few would read that here. In brief, to label them solely "self-propagating" is entirely without scope. Students use that knowledge to consider their own decisions and form ideas about the world. A few courses in ethics could have been useful for many of the politicians and businessmen who have been caught in recent (or not so recent) scandals.
To call the arts a "waste" is foolishly shortsighted. The liberal arts are about taking ideas and connecting them into a coherent, workable form. The basis for that is the same logic mathematicians and scientists base their theories on. That logic stems from philosophy. Throughout history, many ideas for inventions were picked up from science fiction books, mostly written by liberally educated individuals. Further more, if you read, watch TV, listen to the radio, consider legislation or politics, etc., then chances are some liberally educated writer, or team of writers, is behind the scenes creating ideas, scripts, drafts of laws, speeches, and so on.
Those who agree with you are many, but that doesn't make them right. To me, they are unfortunate products of a higher education system increasingly bent on making money and getting bigger. That mindset spills over to the students, who in turn focus on making money and getting "bigger," i.e. making more money. The teaching part of it has unfortunately become, as Professor Delbanco puts it in the excerpt, a "sideline activity."
It is a sad state of affairs for thinking beings who want more than money.
It is not a matter of making more money, it's about not being able to move forward in our energy future, it's about making strives in the medical sciences, it's about increasing food production, it's about providing housing for an increasing global population, it's about creating new more efficient ways to recycle water and resources for the increasing global population... And if someone is actually able to provide for their family at the same time, I for one don't have a problem with that.
I too work in Software development and my productivity would be significantly higher if I could spend more time on my core responsibilities instead of "reminding" the liberal arts majors the basic tenets of good coding. Think of how much more productive you would have been from the get go if you had the basics programming logic when learning a new language instead of writing spaghetti code for the first 3-5 years.
Do you care to respond to any other part of my comment, or just focus (ironically) on the money aspect of it?
"Fundamentally, the Renaissance skirted Germany when it spread from Italy to France and England. Perhaps one of the roots of Hitler's successes may be traced to this failure on Germany's part to participate in humanistic culture."
Albert Speer
Spandau Prison
April 1950
mnemecek,
I understand your frustration but I seriously do not think it is the particular college work someone had. As a contractor among employees I had a harder time convincing fellow coders that the BUSINESS was the target and not the code itself. Most of my assigned coworkers were former math and science whizzes and they were hung up on the technology instead of solving customer issues. I spent many years teaching structured methods and developed many structured systems and still could not convince "coders" to change focus. Ironically I spent lots of time doing research and writing detailed documentation that techies abhorred........even did major email notices on behalf of my customer managers who felt communication was somehow out of their bailiwick.
We participated in a major study assisted by IBM and concluded that most coders care little about customer needs but much more about technology.........puzzle solvers instead of problem solvers.
Bottom Line: smart, caring workers are better than intelligent detached specialists.
NderstoodU,
I do watch TV, and read books and other things that are provided by Liberal arts majors. My issue is not that those exist, but as Libvet has stated he was able to make a career in a real world applicable en devour, would it also not be possible for a person trained in science or engineering to engage in this kind of work as well. But with the added benefit of a solid understanding of how the world works(on a physical level). Isaac Asimov, Brian Green, Alistair Reynolds to name a few.
What is missing from education is critical thinking. Period.
Teece Bowman wrote:
What is missing from education is critical thinking. Period.
An Analytic skill taught in Science and Engineering. Period.
I've served numerous roles in higher education administration with my last role being Associate Dean of Students at a private, liberal arts college. At one point, I was tasked with helping Admissions with recruitment. I was shocked at how many students had in their minds that they were going to college to get a job. I always corrected them and tried to change the mindset. I told them that college is a form of proof that you can be educated. There are a lot of people who don't do what they majored in in college so students should go in to college with the mindset that they are developing new skills and sharpening their existing ones to prepare them for a career in whatever they choose to do. No college is going to get you a job, you have to get you a job. College is optional, as you can work unskilled jobs if you choose, but it is needed in order to give a shot at upward mobility to those who can capitalize on the experience and education.
President Obama's occasional phrase "A nation as rich as America ..." used to open statements that call for spending a lot of American taxpayers' money on social programs that import so many of the World's problems is horribly inconsistent with the trillion dollars ($1,000,000,000,000) unpaid student debt, plus the unfunded pension debts crises, budget deficit and ongoing need for a strong defense against terrorism.
Any chance that might be discussed on the Diane Rehm Show?
I can only speak anecdotally, but I am a perfect example of how the degree is not what gets you the job-- not in a majority of entry-level positions, which are the ones that tend to be available to newly graduated students in our present economy. I went back to finish school when I was 25, and finished two years later, while working full time throughout. My degree is in history and humanities.
My job pays well, provides full benefits, and promises me a great deal of security. What got me hired was not my degree type, or my GPA-- it was how I handled the interview and demonstrated my capabilities through a well presented resume and history. The only thing my degree gave me was leverage to push for a higher pay grade.
Students are graduated now adays after four or five years of only attending school. They're presenting employers a resume that consists of a handful of summer jobs waiting tables and a business degree. It's not enough-- a degree, unless highly specialized, is not enough to get a job anymore. And that's where the humanistic quality Professor Delbanco gains an importance.
If you manage to land that interview, you have to demonstrate yourself as a learned, culturally-aware, verbose individual. It's just my opinion, but I think my degree gave me those qualities-- I don't know that a business degree can.
I have two bachelor's degrees in Liberal Arts. I graduated from a public University in 2009. I studied Spanish for Professionals and Psychology. There are times I think, that it was a waste of money, however I realize that what I was studying was important to me. What is the most frustrating to me is the fact that a BA really doesn't help me that much in the world. If I want a job that can really help put food on my table I need to go back to school and get a Masters or even PHD. With all my student debt, it's very frustrating. I feel like liberal arts really are useless at the Undergraduate level :0(
I would like to hear the guest comment on how much overhead universities take from science grants, and how much of their own salaries faculty are expected to obtain from grants. I believe that where I attended college, universities took 100% overhead on science grants- meaning that if you need $10 for a project, you must obtain $20 from a government grant in order to do the $10 project (the other $10 goes to the university). Also, graduate students in science are often charged tuition even after they complete classes and are just doing research in labs. This does not seem fair. It seems like universities make a lot of money this way.
My husband has $30,000 in debt from 2 masters degrees. He found out from a friend that the workers in the factory near our home are making more money and working less hours. He is seriously thinking of going to the factory. The funny thing is, he will make less than his uneducated co-workers because he must pay back all of the student loans. I wonder if college really is necessary in Indiana. I have no degree and I want badly to have an education...I just can't afford to have one.
Forgive me but 'El-Bunko' would be a more accurate name.
Listen carefully and there are no real prescriptions for reform of the institution let alone radical reform.
One gets no sense he is aware of people like Sir Ken Robinson nor does he address private approaches that lower costs dramatically. Instead he essentially defends the status quo asking that we(Washington) simply pay more. He reasons that the success of the post ww2 generation stemmed from 'investments' in education. There are so many problems with this kind of thinking one wonders if he has benefitted from the humanities education he claims is so vital for clear thinking.
I'm saddened by the perceived lack of value in philosophy, history, and the arts. Science exists to solve the problems of humanity, not to run rampant of its own accord. Ethics and civics education are needed now more than ever, as corporate crimes derail all public trust in large institutions. Just because science can do something doesn't mean it should - we need critical thinkers who consider the consequences of their decisions from multiple perspectives and make reasoned judgments. People need education, period, and we need to solve the problem of access before our income gap widens beyond the point of no return.
As a fine arts major from a Liberal Arts University, I found that a critical part of making a living as an artist (and otherwise) is understanding basic business skills. It's not that I think liberal arts is devalued in today's world, it's just that universities need to arm their students with the tools to be savvy enough to promote their own skills. Really, high schools could help get students familiar with basic finance and how small businesses are set up. Whether creative people work for a large company, or start their own venture...really you are your own product. Having universities help students learn to promote and present themselves will help when a job interview time comes is an invaluable asset. It's about updating and adjusting programs to give students a chance no matter what they study. Universities cannot keep their heads in the sand, and push students out the door to an ever-changing world. There needs to be a balance.
Diane,
I am so thankful for Dr. Delbanco's perspectives on the value of the American education system! I find that many in our country -- doctors, lawyers, engineers among them -- are "well trained" but not "well educated." I was a history major as an undergraduate, and while I certainly learned many facts about the history of U.S. and other societies, it wasn't until I returned to graduate school at American University that I learned the valuable concepts of political economy and critical theory that helped me to conceptualize the world around me. I may have been well trained before my graduate school experience, but I certainly wasn't well educated. I am deeply thankful for the more thoughtful -- and thought-provoking experience I received in graduate school! I have benefitted both professionally and personally from that experience more than I can say.
Ian
Alexandria, VA
Progress by science and engineering?
The Enlightenment gave us the Scientific Method and Categorization through philosophical discourse; The Renaissance fabricated individualism and humanistic thought; The French Revolution was coaxed into being through the voice and ability of the people; the political system, capitalism, that nurtures 'Engineering and Science' was developed through contemplation and philosophical inquiry--The United States was built upon ideological foundations which have no attachment to 'Science and Engineering'.
I would say your idols are a creation of enlightenment and human reasoning which developed from critical analysis--all the benefits of Philosophical inquiry and discourse.
The greatest problem with education in general, not just college, is that it fails to help students find their proper place in life. It's really only been geared towards helping those who aspire to certain high-paying positions. And obviously many who aspire to such never make it. So the rest are left to pretty much figure out what went wrong. Parents make a bad situation worse by trying to live their lives vicariously through their children. And those who don't make it to the top tend to have a sense of failure the rest of their lives.
A college chancellor once said that "we can teach students to earn a living. Where we fail is that we aren't teaching them how to live." And we can see the result in a system that emphasizes moneytary status above morality. No wonder the nation and the world finds itself in a mess. And our current "wrong" way to looking at education will only make the situation worse.
noumenon55 wrote:
Forgive me but 'El-Bunko' would be a more accurate name.
Listen carefully and there are no real prescriptions for reform of the institution let alone radical reform.
One gets no sense he is aware of people like Sir Ken Robinson nor does he address private approaches that lower costs dramatically. Instead he essentially defends the status quo asking that we(Washington) simply pay more.
Nou, you nailed it.
This guy is part of the entrenched interest, just a slightly different type from a public union member or the teacher's unions.
This fine fellow probably makes $200k a year for monstrously easy work, with every holiday and weekend off, as well as summers. He will probably get a pension paid from public tax money.
This guy could also be replaced by tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, of people that would do his job for 25% of his salary, and the instruction would be the same. Read, write, discuss...this dude is nothing special.
I can't take anything this guy says seriously - he is part of the problem.
The cost of instruction far outweighs its value - it has only worked so far because a degree almost guaranteed a job.
If you can read, do you really need to pay $50k per year to these people? Most of that money goes to pay the salaries and benefits of these overpriced liberals.
Ah, yes....the credential. Yup, they are the gatekeepers - for now.
I sincerely hope these rip-off artists get what they deserve.
"mnemecek wrote:
I too work in Software development and my productivity would be significantly higher if I could spend more time on my core responsibilities instead of "reminding" the liberal arts majors the basic tenets of good coding. Think of how much more productive you would have been from the get go if you had the basics programming logic when learning a new language instead of writing spaghetti code for the first 3-5 years.
July 12, 2012 - 8:51 am"
Blah, blah, babble, etc, etc.
Why do you hire Liberal Arts Majors to write Software when Colleges and Universities are producing plenty of well trained and competent Computer Science Majors?
I get a kick out of you "Managers" whining about the terrible workers you are forced to rely on!!
My Boss was in charge of the Blueprint Room and he, a Blueprint Machine operator and a friend that had been working in a Gas Station, with a little help from a consultant, created all the operating and test software for a sophisticated SOA (at the time) Missile Test System, copies of which went all over the World to support our Military.
But Frank was a Leader, not a whiner.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
If high school was what it was 100 years ago, we wouldn't need liberal arts colleges.
"LibVet wrote:
mnemecek,
I understand your frustration but I seriously do not think it is the particular college work someone had. As a contractor among employees I had a harder time convincing fellow coders that the BUSINESS was the target and not the code itself. Most of my assigned coworkers were former math and science whizzes and they were hung up on the technology instead of solving customer issues. I spent many years teaching structured methods and developed many structured systems and still could not convince "coders" to change focus. Ironically I spent lots of time doing research and writing detailed documentation that techies abhorred........even did major email notices on behalf of my customer managers who felt communication was somehow out of their bailiwick.
We participated in a major study assisted by IBM and concluded that most coders care little about customer needs but much more about technology.........puzzle solvers instead of problem solvers.
Bottom Line: smart, caring workers are better than intelligent detached specialists.
July 12, 2012 - 10:03 am"
What you write is mostly true but when one reads the Sunday Globe while looking for a job, one sees few ads for, "smart, caring workers", but mostly ads for those with n+ years experience on this OS or that OS, these Apps and/or those Apps.
The wise Worker in today's economy does well to prepare as much as possible for the day when S/He must seek new employment.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
mchaun wrote:
Blah, blah, babble, etc, etc.
Why do you hire Liberal Arts Majors to write Software when Colleges and Universities are producing plenty of well trained and competent Computer Science Majors?
I get a kick out of you "Managers" whining about the terrible workers you are forced to rely on!!
I'm not a manager I'm and i am not consulted on hiring decisions. I closed down my consulting firm a few years back and am working as a keyboard pounder for a major corporation. I'm also not a whiner read the thread don't assume.