Shawn Colvin: "Diamond in the Rough" (Rebroadcast)
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Shawn Colvin: "Diamond in the Rough" (Rebroadcast) MS. DIANE REHM
11:06:54
Thanks for joining. I'm Diane Rehm. In the late '90s, the song "Sunny Came Home" made the top ten charts. It also won two Grammy awards for singer/songwriter Shawn Colvin. In a new memoir, Colvin opens up about her drinking and depression and how she's arrived at a place of emotional peace.
MS. DIANE REHM
11:07:21
She has a new album out this week, "All Fall Down." Her memoir is titled "Diamond in the Rough." Shawn Colvin joins me in the studio. We'll welcome your questions and comments. Join us on 800-433-8850. Send us your email to drshow@wamu.org. Join us on Facebook or Twitter. Good morning, it's good to have you here.
MS. SHAWN COLVIN
11:07:51
Thank you so much, it's good to be here.
REHM
11:07:54
I wish people could see you. You have on this gorgeous jacket that's filled with rhinestones and red beads. Where did that come from?
COLVIN
11:08:08
Oh, it came from a store yesterday when I felt the terrible urge to go and get something new because I've been working hard. It's a problem that I have.
REHM
11:08:18
What do you mean, it's a problem?
COLVIN
11:08:20
Well, when I work hard, I feel very entitled and I decide, well, I need something new to wear, even though, believe me, I do not need anything new to wear. And also I rationalize, see, I didn't really bring a jacket on this trip thinking it was summer and a lot of the places I'm visiting, the stations and stuff that I'm going into...
REHM
11:08:41
It's cold.
COLVIN
11:08:42
...it's really cold.
REHM
11:08:44
Absolutely.
COLVIN
11:08:46
So I had to have it.
REHM
11:08:46
I'm glad you bought it for yourself.
COLVIN
11:08:49
Thank you.
REHM
11:08:49
I want our listeners to hear a clip of your big breakout song "Sunny Came Home" because in 1998, it won Grammys for Record of the Year and Song of the Year.
REHM
11:10:32
Tell me about this song because you've written that Sunny is you.
COLVIN
11:10:39
I did say that, didn't I? Well, you know, I don't see how you write a song, I don't see how one writes a song without involving at least their emotions, even if they're writing about another character. I mean, what novelist doesn't include their own experience and cast themselves somewhere in that book.
COLVIN
11:11:01
You know, somewhere from their experiences, their points of view and they give them to another character, but there they are, I think. And this was a fun song to write because although I would not burn the house down, you know, it was fun to be kind of bad, to be kind of a bad Sunny.
REHM
11:12:19
I find myself wanting to dance.
COLVIN
11:12:23
That's awesome.
REHM
11:12:24
And you, I mean, you're here sitting across from me. You describe yourself in the first pages of this book as having a desire to be an arsonist, really?
COLVIN
11:12:44
No, I don't think I have a desire, I think I've actually been an arsonist. And I think I describe the times that I have, hopefully in the humorous way that I overview them, but, you know, I've set a few fires.
REHM
11:12:59
You have, and you started out setting this fire in a field and then running to tell your father about it and saying it happened by accident, you had nothing to do with it and he knew full well.
COLVIN
11:13:19
He did. We lived in South Dakota and there was a lot of grass to burn and I just couldn't help myself, finally, at the age of 11 or so. Yes, he knew full well that I had set the fire because he'd set some fires too when he was a kid. It's like a rite of passage and he didn't bust me. He came out and put out the fire and I had learned my lesson. It was scary so I didn't do it again.
REHM
11:13:41
You never set another fire?
COLVIN
11:13:46
Well, not in a place where it could thrive like that. The other fires I have set have been more contained.
REHM
11:13:53
Such as?
COLVIN
11:13:54
Well, the next fire I set, they've had to do with men because men can make you do insane things, as you may know. I don't know. And I had some mementos from a couple of different relationships that ended poorly and I had the desire to, you know, I felt somewhat vengeful and very disappointed and had the desire to burn the mementos, you know, and I did. I did. I burned them.
REHM
11:14:29
Within a contained space?
COLVIN
11:14:32
Well, one time I burned them in a little cookie tin and there weren't that many, a short relationship, not too much to burn, a couple of pictures, a check that I'd written to him, a cashed check, because I'd written him a check to come and visit me. It was silly. But in that particular case, I had set the tin, like a cookie tin, down on the floor and I had a synthetic rug, started the fire and it began to bubble up the floor under, you know. That one didn't work out so well.
COLVIN
11:15:00
And the next time that I burned stuff up, that had to do with, you know, that were relics from my doomed relationship, was not that long ago, a few years ago and I had a lot more stuff this time. I had cards. I had letters. I had locks of hair. I had pictures and I went to my -- I had a fireplace, so lucky me.
REHM
11:15:31
Now does that work for you? Does burning the possessions help you get rid of the bad memories?
COLVIN
11:15:42
I don't know if it helps me get rid of the bad memories, but there's something cathartic about it. And I really don't want the stuff around, you know, it's time. That's a pivotal moment when you say, I can't stand to see this stuff anymore. I literally can't stand to have this stuff around anymore. So I guess it's pivotal in its own way, you know. I don't know if it burns up all the bad memories, but it's cathartic.
REHM
11:16:07
Tell me about your career. Some people think when you have a big hit that, you know, you're an overnight sensation.
COLVIN
11:16:22
Right.
REHM
11:16:22
You got your first guitar when you were ten. You wanted to be in music from then on?
COLVIN
11:16:32
I did, I did, and I remained in music from then on. It's my thing. It was my calling, as they say. So no, it wasn't overnight. I was, hmm, 39, 40 years old when "Sunny Came Home" became a big hit so plenty of dues paid.
REHM
11:16:55
Why do you think it took so long?
COLVIN
11:16:58
I don't know. Everything took a long time with my career. I wasn't comfortable writing songs, even though all my heroes were songwriters. I could sing, very comfortable singing, very comfortable playing the guitar, very comfortable getting in front of people, no problem with that, but songwriting, terrified, terrified.
COLVIN
11:17:18
I wanted to be a songwriter, but just terrified to do it, thought I didn't have what it took so I didn't try. So I didn't really know how to push myself to a place where I might have had a career because I couldn't envision it without being the whole package, without being the singer, the guitar player and the songwriter. I just couldn't sign off on that.
COLVIN
11:17:46
Something was missing and I was unmotivated to do without the writer part. I didn't want to go after the career in a big way. So I kept working on the songwriting and then I finally figured it out. I figured out my voice, my talent, things I wanted to say and, you know, I figured it out.
REHM
11:18:17
And here you are, Shawn Colvin. Her new book is titled "Diamond in the Rough." She also has a brand new album out this week, "All Fall Down." Do join us, 800-433-8850.
REHM
11:20:05
Shawn Colvin is with me. She's got a brand new book out. It's titled "Diamond In the Rough," as well as a new album out this week, "All Fall Down." We have a specific request from Richard in Hollywood, Fla., he says "'Even Here We Are' is one of my all time favorite songs of any singer songwriter. I find it beautiful and deeply moving." Will you play it for us?
COLVIN
11:20:43
Absolutely. Let's just make sure I'm in tune really quickly.
REHM
11:20:52
That's a beautiful guitar.
COLVIN
11:20:53
Thank you. This is the Shawn Colvin model Martin guitar. Now that is a dream come true.
REHM
11:20:58
That's a dream come true.
COLVIN
11:21:01
It is.
REHM
11:23:57
Beautiful.
COLVIN
11:23:58
Thank you.
REHM
11:23:58
Just beautiful. Is there a special story behind that song?
COLVIN
11:24:06
Well, only in that it's ironic and I'll tell you now, I did not write that song. It's written by a man from Minnesota named Paul Westerberg, but one thing that I'm known for, in part, is doing a lot of cover songs and doing them generally differently than the original group or artist and making them mine, as it were. And that's one of them. I put that on a record called "These Four Walls."
REHM
11:24:38
Why did you choose it?
COLVIN
11:24:41
Well, you know, for a long time, when I didn't write and I would perform places, all I had was covering other people's songs. And I just wait for them to kind of grab me. Something, you know, just like anybody, you know, when you hear a song, you're like, I've gotta hear it again.
REHM
11:24:58
Yes.
COLVIN
11:24:58
Well, I've gotta hear it again. So you fall in love with the song and sometimes it works to cover it. And, you know, there are times when I haven't done such a good job, but I really enjoy finding songs and covering them.
REHM
11:25:13
You write in the book "Diamond In the Rough" that growing up in rural South Dakota really allowed you to dream big dreams. What do you mean by that and how did your family play into those dreams?
COLVIN
11:25:37
Well, there was so very little to do and we didn't have -- we had one phone in the house. Kids didn't talk on the phone constantly. We had to go outside, you know, or stay inside and read or play the guitar. We weren't on Facebook, we weren't on Tumblr or Skyping or engaging in this kind of virtual social life that -- I have a 13-year-old daughter so I see it in action. And, you know, you get a little inspiration, a little tweak of inspiration and longing and ambition and dreams.
COLVIN
11:26:25
And I guess one of the first inspirations like that for me was The Beatles. And so my favorite thing to do was to put on these boots that resembled Beatles boots and a jacket of my mother's that was kind of a leather pea coat that resembled a jacket of The Beatles and I would just go walk in the countryside and fantasize that I was a Beatle or a Beatles' girlfriend. And that's what captured my fancy and underneath it all was a desire to be a great musician.
REHM
11:27:04
Was there anything in this last couple of years that made you feel, I want to be a writer, I want to write "Diamond In the Rough?"
COLVIN
11:27:19
No, not at all.
REHM
11:27:20
That's what I thought.
COLVIN
11:27:22
How did you think that? Why did you think so?
REHM
11:27:25
Because I think that your sense of yourself is someone who plays, sings, adores music and perhaps thinks less about, well, I want to write a book to go along with it.
COLVIN
11:27:46
Yeah, exactly. And, you know, writing a song is one thing, trying to tell your story in a book is another. And it's intimidating and one wonders, well, who wants to read it? I mean, if you're Obama, you know people are gonna want to read it, you know, but me, you know, not particularly iconic, I guess I would say. But I talk to a lot of people. Someone suggested that I try it. They felt I had a story to tell and I still was too daunted to even consider it and then I was encouraged to write a couple chapters and...
REHM
11:28:25
That's the way they hook you.
COLVIN
11:28:27
They hooked me in. That's exactly right.
REHM
11:28:30
But you named the book after a song that you did back in what, 19...
COLVIN
11:28:39
'89.
REHM
11:28:41
Let's hear it.
REHM
11:30:58
You chose that title for your book, tell me why.
COLVIN
11:31:04
A number of reasons, not the least of which I thought it looked great with the picture.
REHM
11:31:09
The picture of a little tiny girl with pigtails.
COLVIN
11:31:13
Yes, I'd say I was about -- it's me. I'd say I was about four, five and I'm playing in the mud.
REHM
11:31:21
In the mud.
COLVIN
11:31:21
In the mud. So I thought that was kind of cute.
REHM
11:31:24
Up to your knees in mud.
COLVIN
11:31:27
Very happy in the mud. "Diamond in the Rough" was the first really significant song I wrote where I thought, I figured this out. I figured this out. I've melded the things that I was inspired by. I found my, you know, best talents and I've been able to do it. I've been able to channel it into some words and music that I stand behind a hundred percent. I'm really proud. It was that song.
REHM
11:32:10
And after you put it on paper, did you look at it and sing it and say, I've got it?
COLVIN
11:32:24
No. There was a little litmus test I had to perform before that. I had written a verse and I had a writing partner who actually wrote some of the music to that and we had written a lot of pretty bad pop songs. You know, it wasn't my thing. I wasn't getting anywhere with that, but, you know, at least I got my toe in the water with that stuff. So I took this song that he gave me, it didn't have a melody or words to it, and it was really kind of a pop song, you know, kind of went along in this jumpy way. And I was like, I am a solo acoustic guitar player, you know.
COLVIN
11:33:03
I figured that out. That's what I do. That's what I'm good at, that's what I grew up on, what I cut my teeth on, all these great singer songwriters of the '70s and the '60s. And I was like, if I can't take this piece of music and make it work with me on a guitar all by myself, then it's not the right piece of music. So I did. I covered it, you know, in my own way, instead of just singing over his track. I got out the guitar and copied the way I needed to copy it and changed it up a little bit rhythmically.
COLVIN
11:33:35
And, of course, there was a different sound because his was full of electric guitars and drums and I just had this acoustic guitar. And then, I wrote some words and they just kind of came out of my mouth. And I thought, oh, my God, you know, is this really any good? Is this, 'cause as a little girl, I came up with this, it's kind of twee, you know. So I called John, who, you know, was my -- I don't know, I turned to him to validate, you know, what was good. And he said, well, I think you have something, keep going. And that was kind of the star of approval that I needed to finish the song.
REHM
11:34:18
Shawn Colvin, her new book is titled "Diamond in the Rough." And you're listening to "The Diane Rehm Show." I was startled to learn that, at one point, you went through anorexia. You got down to 86 pounds. It's a miracle you're alive considering that and then you ballooned up 60 pounds in three months.
COLVIN
11:34:59
Yeah, I was hungry.
REHM
11:35:01
And you were 22 years old. You said you looked like a giant whale.
COLVIN
11:35:11
I did, I did. I was very tiny and then I was very big and nothing fit me. And I certainly felt better, honestly, than I had when I wouldn't eat at all. But I made up for lost time, you know.
REHM
11:35:29
How do you think that anorexia -- or why do you think that anorexia began? You're so thin now. I cannot imagine you at 86 pounds.
COLVIN
11:35:43
Yeah, it was devastating and hard to watch. And I feel bad for my folks, you know, to have to see that. I don't know what I would do if that went on with my daughter. I'd be heartbroken beyond all telling. The way it started for me -- and I was not a teenager. I was a little bit older than that, obviously, which is not the norm really. I think mostly it starts with teenagers, but I had -- I was kind of a momma's girl and afraid to leave home.
COLVIN
11:36:17
I finally did leave home when I was about 20, 21 and with a boyfriend and a band, moved to Austin, Texas. And I was terrified to do it, but I adjusted and enjoyed it. Then I began to have trouble with my voice so I had nodes on my vocal cords and I couldn't sing. Now, for somebody who has based their identity entirely on the ability to sing, on one's voice, it sent me into quite a spin and a spiral down and I had to quit the band...
REHM
11:37:00
And come home.
COLVIN
11:37:01
Well, eventually, but I got a job at a clothing store and my boyfriend was continuing to go out on tour. So I was alone in this house, for all intents and purposes, and I had to feed myself alone, which I'm still not so good at doing, to tell you the truth. And I took up running because I was bored. And that was the perfect storm, you know.
REHM
11:37:23
Shawn Colvin. Her new book is titled "Diamond in the Rough." She has a brand new album out as well. When we come back, your calls, your comments. I look forward to hearing from you.
REHM
11:40:04
Many callers and emails for Shawn Colvin, her brand new book is titled, "Diamond in the Rough." Let's go first to Olney, Md. Good morning, Lori, you're on the air.
LORI
11:40:21
Good morning, Diane. When I heard Shawn Colvin was on your show, I wanted to call in and share just a brief story with her. Back in about 1995 or '96, I went to a wedding in the mountains of North Carolina and the bride's brother was married to Jackson Brown's sister. And for whatever reason, Jackson Brown was at that wedding. And I had always been madly in love with Jackson Brown and his music.
COLVIN
11:40:52
Me too.
LORI
11:40:54
And so I decided there was nobody else in the world I would have wanted to meet, you know, more than Jackson Brown. So I went up to him and I asked him to dance with me.
COLVIN
11:41:04
Nice one.
LORI
11:41:07
So after he took a picture with the bride, he danced with me. And while I was dancing, I was telling him how, you know, there was nobody else I would rather have met. And what he said back to me was for him that would be either Bonnie Raitt or Shawn Colvin.
COLVIN
11:41:27
He's been -- yeah. Isn't that great?
LORI
11:41:29
Yeah.
COLVIN
11:41:29
I mean those are -- that's the pinch me stuff.
LORI
11:41:32
Yeah.
COLVIN
11:41:33
You know.
REHM
11:41:33
Really.
LORI
11:41:34
That was a very meaningful moment for me and it's, obviously, all these years later, stuck with me.
REHM
11:41:40
Lori, thanks for sharing that.
COLVIN
11:41:42
Thank you.
REHM
11:41:43
What a lovely story.
COLVIN
11:41:44
Oh, yeah, I can hardly even speak. I love Jackson Brown. I love his song writing. I adore him and he thinks I'm good, you know. You know, he thinks I'm good.
REHM
11:41:57
We've had a number of requests for "Shotgun Down the Avalanche." Would you play it for us?
COLVIN
11:42:05
Absolutely. I may not be in the best voice, as you've noticed already.
REHM
11:42:10
You sound terrific.
REHM
11:45:47
Shawn Colvin performing live here in the studio. Her new book is titled "Diamond in the Rough." She also has a new album out this week called "All Fall Down." And let's go to Orlando, Fla. Good morning, Amy, you're on the air.
AMY
11:46:13
Hi, Diane, how are you?
REHM
11:46:14
I'm great. How are you?
AMY
11:46:17
I'm tickled pink over this experience of talking to you and Shawn Colvin.
REHM
11:46:22
Good.
AMY
11:46:24
I can't believe it. Anyhow, I do have an all-time favorite. For years, "Orion" has been literally my all-time favorite. And I'm very curious as to what does that song mean to you? Where were you at at the time that you wrote it? Just its background, please. It's touched me in a way that I think it just speaks to me on such a deep level. And I just want to know how it speaks to you, Shawn.
COLVIN
11:46:54
Well, I would love to know, actually, how it speaks to you. I'll tell you how it came about real quickly. My first husband was an Englishman, but he had family in Australia, a son, among others. And so his heart was there a great deal. And we would go and visit every Christmas. And one of the things he and his son would say to each other is, well, we can both see Orion in the sky no matter where we are.
COLVIN
11:47:26
And I loved it down there. I was really enchanted by Australia. And it came to mind that, you know, maybe it's the one safe place we can go, maybe kind of escape down there, you know, underneath everything. That was my fantasy. And so I took the character of Orion and kind of wove in some mystical stuff about, you know, healing and the state of the world.
REHM
11:47:58
What were you feeling the need to run away from at the time?
COLVIN
11:48:05
Not so much run away as -- I mean, I wasn't running away from anything. I was quite happy. But I was really enchanted by the country. And it seemed to hearken back to an America that existed, you know, 40 years prior. And that was -- it was a comfort. And it just seemed like they were removed and I was probably projecting something onto them. Sure, they have their problems, but it just felt to me like it was a fresh start.
REHM
11:48:42
And yet in your words, "Shotgun Down the Avalanche," you say, sometimes you make me lose my will to live.
COLVIN
11:48:53
Oh, yeah.
REHM
11:48:54
What was going on then?
COLVIN
11:48:57
Oh, that was a romance that brought me many songs. I'm very grateful for that.
REHM
11:49:04
And yet it must have been a pretty unhappy situation.
COLVIN
11:49:09
From time to time it was and it's really all down to me. I was in my early 20s and I just have some problems really, kind of in the intimacy department and to move slowly and get to know someone well and be friendly. And I kind of, you know, buy the China on the second date, if you know what I mean -- the wedding China.
COLVIN
11:49:32
And I just was sucked into this thing and gave it my all and more than my all, gave myself up. And, hence, the line, you know, I just kind of feel like I would give over my own life to you.
REHM
11:49:51
And finally it came to an end because...
COLVIN
11:49:54
Yes, it did.
REHM
11:49:54
...you said we are over the edge.
COLVIN
11:49:59
Well, there was the metaphor for me, yeah. We were -- and I felt like a passenger, like, I'm just -- we're going down. And I don't want to, but here we go.
REHM
11:50:13
There's another song here, "Polaroids," from "Fat City." Tell me about that.
COLVIN
11:50:23
I'm very, very proud of that song. I wrote that song by myself and that's a big accomplishment for me to write a song alone. I've written several. And I like this song a great deal. It's just another chronicle of -- it was almost a photo journal of a trip to Europe that I took, first time I ever went. A love affair that I had there, coming back to New York and working on music. And, you know, kind of lamenting the dishonesty and hurt between all of us sometimes, whether it be a business relationship, a personal relationship. And then I dreamt a dream that ended the song. I dreamt it and it was the perfect ending for the song.
REHM
11:51:28
Will you play it for me?
COLVIN
11:51:29
Oh, sure, sure. I will definitely play it for you. It's kind of a long one. Are you ready?
REHM
11:51:41
That's okay.
COLVIN
11:51:42
Okay.
REHM
11:56:11
Shawn Colvin performing for us here in the studio, "Polaroids." She has a brand new book out. It's titled "Diamond in the Rough," as well as a new album out this week called "All Fall Down." Shawn Colvin, what a pleasure to talk with you.
COLVIN
11:56:37
Thank you, same here.
REHM
11:56:39
I hope you're well.
COLVIN
11:56:40
I'm very well, thank you.
REHM
11:56:41
I'm so glad. Thanks for being here.
COLVIN
11:56:44
You're welcome, thank you.
REHM
11:56:45
And thanks for listening all, I'm Diane Rehm.
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