Legacy of The War of 1812
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-06-18/legacy-war-1812
A discussion on the War of 1812 which began 200 years ago today. Often called "the forgotten war," it tested a new generation of American leaders, shifted the global balance of power and set the stage for American westward expansion.
Guests
Walter Borneman
author, "1812: The War that Forged a Nation"
Troy Bickham
Associate Professor of History at Texas A&M University and author of "The Weight of Vengeance: The United States, The British Empire, and The War of 1812"
Donald Fixico
Professor of History at Arizona State University
James Cusick
Curator of the P. K. Yonge Library of Florida at the University of Florida Library and author of "The Other War of 1812: The Patriot War and the American Invasion of Spanish East Florida"
Comments
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It may be good to have a Canadian viewpoint of the War of 1812. Today an article was printed that gives a different perspective that includes the point that Canada was considered a potential prize for the US and a major reason for the war.
http://www.ottawacitizen.com/opinion/America+went+1812/6797154/story.html
I live in Indiana near the Tippecanoe River so Tecumseh, a major force in the war with his Shawnee and his brother,Tenskwatawa the Prophet is a huge part of our local history and 1812 battle re-enactments are very popular. It's a great way of bringing this history to life and recognizing the impact on our nation's history.
The U.S. might have been able to win the war had France come in on our side, as they had during our Revolution. When you come right down to it, given the debt we owe the French and the debt they owe us from more recent wars, it's no wonder that many of us can't stand each other...a Serbian grad student once said of someone, 'Why does he hate me? I've never done ANYTHING for him!'
The political necessity of insisting that we hadn't lost the war I think also fed into the nascent national character's eagerness to deny reality, and create national myths as the real Founders died (see: Parson Weems); once that era were seen in this light---one of intentional gullibility---and the Great Awakening and the Burnt-Over District, and the nigh-incredible creeds surviving them, make sense.
By 1815 the United States was ready for peace, yet the British still thought they could take New Orleans. Bad idea.
What is the truth about the War of 1812 as a war of US aggression to conquer British land in Canada-- not the narrative of impressing US sailors?
The War of 1812 was an American war of aggression. The main goals were to stop the British support for the Native Americans that was restraining American expansion into Native Territories to the west, and the seizure and annexation of Canada.
The burning of Washington DC was in part a retaliation for the burning of York, but also for the unprovoked invasions of Canada and the predations and destruction of the properties and livelihoods of ordinary Canadians.
Lost in the focus on Washington was the fact that the burning of York and its essential shelter and food supplies in the face of an oncoming Winter was a form of terrorism that was a violation of the rules of war as severe in its time as the Japanese surprise attack on Pear Harbor in its time.
In retaliation, Canadian forces attacked and burned US towns all along the southern shore of Lake Ontario, including Fort Erie and Buffalo, turning out their inhabitants into the face of a deadly winter. The result of all this was a loss of civilian life on both sides that was unprecedented in the lack of military legitimacy.
The lack of contrition by the US Government for their part in all this was a significant part of the justification for the burning of Washington.
All of this was still fresh in the minds of US military officers during the US Civil War, and its influence can be seen in the way civilians were often considered legitimate targets during this conflict as well.
my relative, Dr. William Swift, was a surgeon on The Chesapeake. I wonder if the guests know anything about him? Also, I had always heard that the saying "Don't give up the ship" came from the captain of that ship.
Interesting program!
Thank you,
Deborah
I am a descendant of Maj. William Howe Cuyler, who was killed in the War of 1812 at Black Rock in what is now Buffalo, NY in 1812. He is buried in the Palmyra, NY cemetery. He was killed by a canon ball while on horseback as he was ministering to the wounded. His sword, uniform, and the canon ball that killed him were sent home to his wife, Eleanor Shekell. The uniform and sword were eventually donated to the Palmyra Library on Cuyler Street in Palmyra, NY. I have an original oil painting of Maj. Cuyler (done post-humously, I believe) and one of his wife, Eleanor, hanging in my dining room. I also have the cannon ball that killed him, and we also still have several papers concerning his commissioning and commendations.
Here in Windsor Ont. we just this year will be giving Tecumseh the honor that he has always deserved. He's known as one of the great heroes of Canada's independence.
The War of 1812 really established the United States as an effective, world wide naval power. The small Navy and effective privateer force often handled the British Navy and severely impacted British commerce. The increased shipping insurance costs were probably a strong motivation for Great Britain to negotiate a settlement.
Royce
Please discuss the role of Negro Fort and black participation in southern massacres of whites by "Red Stick" Creeks as a source of the racism in the Deep South that has come to define that region. Also, what do the expert guests think of the proposition that the Tecumseh-led war on America was actually a war between a hunter-gatherer culture (the Indians pre-colonization of N. America by Europe) and an agrarian-industrial one (the Americans)--as in Jared Diamond's GUNS GERMS AND STEEL?
It was just stated that: "As as aesult of the War of 1812, Britain was pretty much locked out of North America." REALLY? Seems to me that Britain had a good presence in the majority of North America - called Canada! It happens to be the majority of the land in North America, and was expanded during this time into the second largest country on Earth, with more resources than any other country accept Russia.
In fact, the War of 1812 prevented the US from joining with Canada, meaning that the US lost far more potential territory than they gained, and the British assured a restriction on US expansion throughout the majority of North America.
Please let me know if you're familiar with the alternative history book named "Redcoats Revenge" by Col. David Fitz-Enz. It has an interesting twist which has the British winning and changing American history.
Thanks,
Paul DeConinck
Holland, MI
Can one of the guests comment on Dartmoor Prison and the American Cemetary, in England?
I'm from Baltimore, and here we're rather myopic about the Battle of Baltimore at Fort McHenry and the writing of the Star Spangled Banner by Francis Scott Key. We have Defender's Day to commemorate the event.
One of your guests stated that the burning of Washington took place in September of 1814. Actually it was in August when they were in and around Washington from August 24 through August 26 when they left for Baltimore. They burned only public buildings and left when a tornado and rain storm discouraged further British action.
James Madison was the only President to conduct a war and still maintain all the rights guaranteed in the Constitution. He was also the only President to ride to battle while in office.
Why do they call the war "Mr. Madison's war?
No one seems to ever speak about the sinking of the American ship: The Caroline who was docked in the St. Lawrence River, and the British let her loose from the dock and sat her on fire. You are not saying anything at this point about it? No mention of Bill Johnston? This war seemed to continue.. going on past 1812. I am thinking that no one actually 'won'.
In the end, the "Winners" of the war were Canadians, who gained their own destiny as an independent country, free from US aggression. They 'won' the second largest country in the World, not a half of a smaller country as the US may claim.
If you want to understand the War of 1812 form the Canadian perspective, Pierre Burton's "The Invasion of Canada", and "Flames Across the Border" as a must.
American cannot understand this, or any conflict, if they only read the works of self-congratulatory American Historians. The Panelists were completely nearsighted in their recommendations. Shame on them.
I am bit surprised not to hear much about the very effective Royal Naval blockade of the US coast, or about the British occupation of eastern Maine, as well as Fort Niagara. The result was that the US government, deprived of most of its revenues, was effectively bankrupt. It was an experience that American leaders, even Andrew Jackson, would think twice about repeating.
This was a case of one group of Americans -- citizens of the new republic -- attacking another group of Americans, subjects of the old Crown. By the end of the war the latter group had been cured of any hankering to reunite with their cousins.
An email from a teacher was briefly mentioned during the broadcast. She mentioned using a song to the tune of Respect to help teach about the war. Is there any chance to get the words to this song?
A great show! I think NPR and WAMU must do more shows of this type! Most of us Americans have no historical savvy! And if you will allow me, I think it is due to the lack of a national curriculum... one country... 50 plus curricula... a hit and miss mess of failures... even the more virtuous states come short! Even as we continue to insinuate we are the best in everything!
I really enjoyed the Canadian Brass original 1814 version of the Star Spangled Banner you played at the end of the show. I've looked on both the Canadian Brass's website and on youtube, but can't find a recording. Can you make that version available on your site, please?
What is the name of the tune that was played at the beginning of the broadcast? Who is the author? It was used as a fanfare for the Vice president at the last presidential inaugeration.
From my very modest point of view, I can only agree with this gentleman! The United States are a great country because of the marvelous people who are much too controlled and not allowed to really speak their mind, a condition that is made that way because of an apparent minority that misreads the constitution, and acts as if the word GOVERNMENT is a real bad word! In spite of many wonderful people, in spite of all the good intentions, in spite of the true aspirations of the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, this country has a history of violence and internal unrest that cannot be denied and overlooked. Sheer wealth, massive power and arrogance have made this country what it is today... but things are changing and this country must join the rest of civilized countries and move forward and away from the rhetoric of violence and arrogance.
We remain this way as a country because we have no national curriculum as real countries do; we have a patchwork of curricula that often move students along without really allowing them to achieve any real education! It is our shame and to our shame we outvote or kill any president who is likely to change and move the country forward and we refuse to believe that we must upgrade and improve our system of governance... we refuse to streamline our system, reduce the cost of politics, refuse to change the election commissions in order to give them autonomy and real objectivity and on and on... when it comes right down to it, this country refuses to change because it has no real understanding of what it does and what it could do if it ever woke up from its long torpor and devotion to violence.