American Roman Catholic Nuns And The Vatican
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-06-14/american-roman-catholic-nuns-and-vatican
In April, the Vatican issued a strong rebuke to the Leadership Conference of Women Religious, or LCWR, a group that represents 80 percent of all Roman Catholic nuns in the United States. The Vatican accused the nuns of promoting radical feminism and not doing enough to speak out against abortion and gay marriage. This week, a LCWR delegation met in Rome with Vatican doctrinal officials, but little was resolved. Many Catholics agree with the Vatican's position. But the LCWR and affiliated groups say since the rebuke they've experienced a groundswell of support for their activism and efforts to help the poor. Diane and her guests discuss the dispute and the role of women in the Catholic Church.
Guests
Maureen Fiedler
host of public radio's Interfaith Voices and Sister of Loretto.
John Allen
senior correspondent, National Catholic Reporter; author of "Conclave" and "All the Pope's Men."
Stephen White
fellow in Catholic Studies, Ethics and Public Policy Center.
Comments
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when the caller asked why the nuns just didn't leave for a denomination that matched their politics the woman stated that she loved the rituals et. al.....this just demonstrates that they like the show but not the substance.
she also stated that jesus didn't say anything about abortion or homosexuality.
well, he didn't say anything about pedophilia or pornography either, does that make those things acceptable then?
i don't know why libs always emphasize service to the poor as their main focus when we all know it's subterfuge for underlying political manuevering. they are not fooling anyone, the church has focused on service to the poor for a very long time, liberals didnt invent it.
I am a faithful listener. thank you for this program. I totally support the nuns. My aunt was a Sister of Mercy in Pennsylvania. The explanation given using Mary as an excuse to keeping woment in their place is sad and only shows how the institiution contrives to keep its power. And yes it most certainly is about the power of these men. Keep up the good and balanced programs.
an apt conceptualization of this situation by Josh MacDonald. In a homily, our priest said he approves of "radical and far right" people, middle conservatives "maybe ok" and does not want "liberals" in his church.
The Catholic church has become a patsy for the GOP.
Over 50% of my jobs have been volunteer, social justice initiatives, and I've practiced the spirit of Vatican II in all of my wage jobs and personal life, even before 1995 when I was baptized Catholic in El Salvador by Jesuits. Yes, truly embracing the option for the poor has economic and as a result, lifestyle consequences, like, at age 63, living off of a very modest Social Security, not owning a home/vehicle or having a savings account. But I am proud of my choices and happy with their consequences which underscore the depth of my faith, of my Catholicism, which, by the way, does not recognize the Pope and many in the Vatican who are so out of touch with and do not practice Jesus' example. I really enjoyed this panel, Diane. Thanks.
I believe the core issue here is totally about Dogmatic Authority that is exercised and imposed unilaterally by the Pope. One of your guests referenced the church began in the 1st century. In fact it began in 325 A.D. when the Emperor Constantine gave political recognition to a group of Bishops who chose to attend the Council of Nicaea. This created what we now call the Roman Catholic Church. Throughout history anyone , including Galileo, who disputed the Pope was rejected . This model of Autocracy is totally in conflict with Democracy. Hence.....The " Problem" of the Leadership council and its position.
How to stand in solidarity with LCWR & Catholic Sisters? That question is why our DC-area group exists. We held a public rally & met with the Papal Nuncio on 5/29; he agreed to deliver our letter to Pope Benedict, asking for withdrawal of the Vatican mandate. We are working to follow LCWR's example of prayerful discernment and dialog. Our website has stories, resources, and invitations for you to participate so we can learn together. http://solidaritywithsisters.weebly.com/
Having just finished listening to the entire broadcast of this subject ---I only have one comment. We are not only considered the "People of God"; but more importantly, we are regarded as the "faithful" along with the "Church militant". What that means is that we regard doctrine and tradition with very intense study, prayer, and deliberation. I wonder if the embrace of social justice has the same level of definition among the WLRC.
Carol
At age 18 in 1963 I became a Sister of Charity at the end of Vatican II. I loved being part of the change in communities of sisters as we followed the directives to renew and realign with the vision of our founders, most of whom were dedicated to being among the poor as servant.
We not only supported the work of people like Cesar Chavez, but got into politics and social agencies to better the lot of the suffering poor and battered women and hungry, abused children. We also worked with women like myself who heard the call to be a priest in the Catholic Church to share in the preaching/teaching mission of priests, to have the voice of women be part of the decision-making in the Church as it was in the beginning of the Church.
But in conscience I had to leave my beloved community on the occasion of my 25th anniversary as a nun and become catholic with a small c. My letter to the Vatican stating my purpose for leaving was a condemnation of SEXISM in the Catholic Church and how I could not allow my life to support it any longer.
I truly believe this current struggle is the Spirit's way of renewing the Church, of allowing the leadership of women inside and outside the Church to reform the sexism in the Church, to bring the Church back to what God through Spirit calls it to be. I truly believe the Spirit is at work in the Catholic church as in the world, and that the crusty hierarchies in religion and government will eventually break off and fall to new growth and evolutionary change. This will be in large part by the courage of women to be who and what they are called to be by Spirit who gives them the courage to speak truth to power.
Is there such a consensus in the world that not a soul on this site speaks up for the Church's view - or does it reflect this audience? look at how you pitch the story "attention to the needs of the poor," as though the Church is not now in a struggle with the powerful government because the Church is trying to serve the poor while resisting Ceasar's power to tell it how it must operate.
The Vatican needs to get with the times. The world is overpopulated and we don't need people having children all the time and mouths they can't feed just cause they can't use protection. The world can't sustain the population as it is. Considering the Vatican is the richest organization on earth they treat nuns and women like trash. Thank God I am not a Catholic.
I have just one question: Mr. Allen is a reporter; that's what he does.... your guest, Mr. White, is "a fellow in Catholic Studies, Ethics and Public Policy Center." But what, excactly, does he DO?
Sounds like the pope does not want the nuns to use the brains God gave them.
I am not Catholic so it could be said I don't have a dog in this fight but as an "outsider" I wonder why so many join religions, country clubs, etc. and then set about to change them. IF I were Catholic I would want the assurance that the doctrine being taught and the practices of those in example positions would be in keeping with the standards set by the hierarchic of the church, which I believe is still the Vatican. I don't agree with the Vatican but it's sort of their ballgame, being played in their park, with their ball. If you don't like their rules, move on.
To Hell with the Vatican. The Nuns should form their own church. At least nuns don't constantly molest altar boys and anyone else they can get their paws on (and if they're not directly involved in sex abuse, they're involved in covering it up). EVERY Roman Catholic priest - including that Demon looking Pope - should fry in Hell. ~ if you believe in that.
Meet a Nun and one has a kind and compassionate feeling generally towards them. Meet Any priest and they give me an icky, don't ever touch me, vibe. I honestly don't know how anyone can trust a priest anymore. The flock is little more than mindless sheep.
Might want to take the time to actually listen to the show. Your "Church" was well represented.
Google Mr. White. I did!
I listened to the show today and wanted to call in, but did not have time. Thank you Diane for hosting this dialogue and most importantly thank you sisters for showing so many of us the way. I love you all from the bottom of my heart. I was educated by the the Immaculate Heart of Mary (IHM) and the Sisters of the Notre Dame (SND), fine tuned by the Society of Jesus, and then had the good fortune to work with sisters side by side, almost daily for the last 25 years with a variety of orders in our collective work to feed, clothe, and provide shelter and medical attention to the homeless. But more importantly, I have watched the sisters be a voice for the voiceless and often change systems that perpetuate poverty and isolation.
Everything that I am that is good is because of the nuns who committed themselves to properly educating young women: instilling confidence and
compassion and insisting on excellence. So, this assault on the sisters, the backbone of the institutional church, by men who have seldom gotten their hands dirty, is very personal for me. I am their daughter. I am not a practicing Catholic. I am however a practicing Christian. The nuns taught me that women think, to not let college interfere with an education, and that no one, no one, not even the Pope can steal faith. Faith is a powerful thing. I support the work of the sisters; their committment to social justice and social change. So, I think it is time for the church fathers to stop deflecting their inferiority with attacks on nuns. Clean your own house fathers. This will keep you busy for a long time.
".......church does not financially support nuns......"???
that's going to be BIG news to our parish council and school board!!
The sisters typically take a vow of povert but still require finsncial support. Sisters subsist mostly on donations from parishioners..........and parishioners ARE the Church just as much as the clergy. Last time I checked, the hierarchy had few streams of income from anything other than donations. Bingo and festival proceeds are surely income from "the Church".
What could you mean??
Jonesy:
Check the New Testament description of what Jesus did during His public life........the term IS social justice. In fact, examine what His most significant activities were at the time of the Last Supper: not only did He establish the Eucharist, literally He waited on and served the Apostles.........serving them food and washing their feet, explaining in detail that if one wishes to lead, one must first SERVE. He repeatedly annoyed Peter by asking Peter if he loved Him, instructing him to feed and care for His lambs and sheep. He warned the disciples that what was either done or neglected to "the least" of our brothers would be lik doing for or neglecting Him.
It makes no sense for conservatives to harangue liberals about service to the poor........and even worse, to "mind read" what anyone's real intent is. Ever hear Jesus say anything about judging others????
The Sisters exemplify the ultimate in self sacrifice and service..... not just to the poor but to all. There are vows of obedience for sure; but no one is barred from using one's God given intellect and free will......even nuns. Insisting on service without even a dialogue goes beyond the Church's teachings to act based on one's conscience........per St. Thomas Acquinas, for one.
I do too. I know this is the the Holy Spirit moving us along. I left the church in 1994 because the church fathers became inflated with power, terrible with women, and were and are out of touch. You are brave. Nuns like you made many young women brave too. Thank you on behalf of all of us.
Jonesy:
Are the readers supposed to believe YOUR comments and those of other conservatives are not mere political subterfuge?
By definition, we liberals are automatically open to the possibikity that you do mean what you say. We applaud your service to the poor and the nation. Please reciprocate in kind.......minus the faulty mind reading.
Thanks
I am a 56 year old who was a practicing catholic until I was 22 years old. Frankly, the only clergy in this church that I have any admiration for is Nuns. Through the history of the church Nuns that have built schools and hospitals and worked among the poor.
I completely agree that focusing on them is to deflect the corruption of the vatican, and the behavior of priests. These are old men who have no idea of the real world and I believe that they also hate women. Aren't they going after the girl scouts too?
I will be calling the diocese to see how I can be offically excommunicated from the catholic church!!! I no longer want to be considered a lapsed catholic I want to cut all past and future association with the church.
Stephen White has no clue how insulting to women his statement about the Blessed Virgin Mary is. He points to the veneration of a female archetype as proof of how the Church respects women?....what a hollow gesture of respect to real women. The women are 'respected' as long as they don't speak their truth, don't ask for anything and don't want to transform along with expanding human consciousness. I was educated in Catholic schools for 12 years and it was the intelligence, open-mindedness and good humor of the nuns that made it a life enriching experience.
This controversy is evidence of the Conservative Catholics trying to "put the Genie back in the bottle" that Vatican II released to the betterment of all.
What was missed in this entire conversation is that the Vatican is not leading on this issue. After being ignored and sidelined, the younger generation of US nuns rejected the Leadership Council of Women Religious (LCWR) a decade ago to found their own organization of nuns: the Council of Major Superiors of Women Religious (CMSWR, http://www.cmswr.org/). The LCWR has an average age of 73 and rising. The sisters in these organizations are steadily declining and handing over their schools to either laity or younger sisters from CMSWR religious orders. Nuns/Sisters in the CMSWR have an average age of 35 and falling, nearly 40 years younger than LCWR nuns! Demography is destiny, and it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see where this is headed. In another 30 years the LCWR nuns will have died off to the point that their influence is inconsequential compared to the CMSWR nuns. The CMSWR orders already have the youth and energy of young women. The only time the LCWR gets media attention is when they have a conflict with the Vatican. The CMSWR nuns get attetion from the likes of Oprah wanting to know what their life is like because their are so darn young and happy, attracting the best and brightest young women to their orders. How ironic that the LCWR, a group of nuns ever seeking novelty in worship, missed the biggest revolution in religious life in a generation with the founding of the CMSWR.
Yes, the LCWR sisters are older. I stood on picket lines with Sr. Alice and Sr. Kate McKenna. They were both well into their 80's when we protested the 1st war in Iraq. When Sursum Corda projects needed renovation, it was the sisters, all over 65 who showed up, pulled up old tile, painted walls, gathered donations, and made a safe and affordable housing situation a reality for many of the District's homeless. It was Sister Helen James John, SND, PhD who was well into her 70's and chaired the Philosphy Department at Trinity College who taught social justice, who drilled young women on the fact that "women think", had a stroke, returned to her students and told them to not allow college to interfere with their education. It was Sr. Mary Hayes, SND, PhD who well into her 60's who demanded truth teaching: an accurate account of American History rather than spoon feeding young women revisionist history. It was Sr. Mary Jeanette IHM who entered a first grade classroom well into her golden years who believed that she was responsible to each child to ensure a formidable foundation. She worked tirelessly with parents and children to make sure everyone got it. Specifically, children who were at risk. Sr. Mary Ann Luby organized and led The Fair Budget Coalition and walked the streets of Washington DC until 2 weeks before she died identifying and engaging the most compromised homeless people. Now, let's discuss youth and energy.
Mr. White mentioned that the Vatican's efforts amounted to a "Performance Review." I think it's about time that the Vatican reviews its own performance and gets its house in order before trying to "reform" the LCWR. The Vatican's "Performance Review" of itself could begin by having bishops who knowingly transfered "troubled" priests from parish to parish "fess up" instead of "covering up."
I suggest many read the "Doctrinal Assessment of the Leadership Conference of Women Religious." It is the document that has brought all this debate about. It bends over backward to praise the legacy of American nuns. Some in the media, and not a few nuns, have turned it into a witchhunt...the church persecuting holy women who soley work for the poor. That is not what the "Vatican" has said. This is no surprise. The questioning of what is being said in the LCWR has been going on for over 30 years by both bishops, priests, laity and nuns. A large group of nuns split of to form their own conference because of what was going on in the LCWR. Too many of the Leaders of the LCWR invoke Vatican Council II. Vatican Council II changed many things, but not what we believe as Christians. Too many of them seem to think that it is OK to question even the divinty of Christ. That makes them a non-Christian and is heretical. "Never under-estimate the power of a nun" we were taught. They have great influence for good, but can be a force for not good things too. Why should the Church not investigate what her religious leaders are saying.
The Pope [Papa] is a holy genius, the vicar of Jesus Almighty on earth.
Though the show didn't go specifically into the women/priest issue now/here seems like a good time to talk about why nuns can't be priests.-- Jesus is the Groom and the Church is His bride. A priest acts in Jesus' name. The priest is married to the Church. A female married to the bride is a homosexual union.
Yuck. Bad. Wrong.
Would this sentiment be at all helpful?
Abortion stops a beating heart, like war and other forms of predation that destroy innocent human and other living beings and accelerate a destructive cycle. Cascading ecocide may terminate all context for spiritual and biological life on planet Earth. Let us share broadly and deeply our information, ideas, and commitments for coming through this crisis together, lest we all perish one by one.
The church is a bunch of old child molesters. My close friend was a (key word was) conservative Catholic church goer until about 2002. Then he found out that his 8 year old son was being abused by his priest. When his son first told him he didn't believe it. Once he started putting the pieces of the puzzle together he finally realized that his so called "house of worship" was actually a "house of horrors". He was in emotional turmoil while he was formulating his views on this vile and corrupt institution. But after months of therapy and counseling he decided to leave the church along with his family. His court case is still being appealed and delayed by the heart-less church lawyers, but he is hoping to get at least a public apology and see the priest that committed the abuse put in jail.
Well that is the story about my friend. Here is my thoughts on the new story. When you have a male clergy full of pedophiles and souless fear mongerers, I expect conflict to arise between these facades of a "caring, and benevolent god" and the actual "doers" in the church. When the Priests and Bishops fight against abortion and homosexuality instead of talking about greed, corruption, and the poor what they are doing is relegating the important issues to the side and repeating right wing talking points.
The point of religion and god is to be a source of support for the utterly helpless and forsaken in the world. But now religious bigot like these priests would rather spend their time talking about imagined threats (abortion and LGBT rights) rather than face actual ones (greed, poverty, hunger).
Plus the church's handling of the CURRENT sex abuse scandal speaks volumes on what the church values. I strongly urge all "practicing Catholics" to look into how many priests used to molest boys and the current rates of sex abuse in the church right now. It hasn't changed and will never. The Catholic church needs to be disbanded or at least lose its non-profit status.