New Voter ID Laws And The 2012 Elections
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-06-11/new-voter-id-laws-and-2012-elections
Last week county election officials in Florida said they would stop looking for possible ineligible voters because the data base they were using was outdated and inaccurate. The U.S. Department of Justice also had ordered the state to stop the purge on the grounds that it was taking place within 90 days of an election. State leaders in Florida have vowed to find another way to remove ineligible voters from their rolls. The skirmish in the state of Florida is just one of many elsewhere around the country: Last year new voter ID measures were introduced in thirty-four states and they passed in four. Four other states tightened existing ID rules. Please join us to talk about ongoing partisan battles over voter rights.
Guests
Wendy Weiser
director, Democracy Program, Brennan Center for Justice
Hans Von Spakovsky
senior legal fellow, Heritage Foundation and manager of Civil Justice Reform Initiative
Doug Chapin
director, Electionline.org at the University of Minnesota
Comments
Please familiarize yourself with our Code of Conduct and Terms of Use before posting your comments.
Freedom rocks wrote:
"ecgberht , you gave two choices,
1: people with land
2: "... someone who has no home and no job and whom the government supports".
The gist of that is that if one has no land, one is homeless. You made no other options available."
Nope. I made two statements. You connected them - with faulty logic. There was no indication that that was the universe of choices and obviously it isn't.
The point though is, that there is logic to the idea that people who vote have a vested interest in what they are voting for. You see it every day in board rooms and organizations. They don't just let anybody walk in off the street and vote. That was the logic behind the original voting requirements - it was the interest of property owners at stake - who happened to be mostly white and male.
Mike Sergeant wrote: "I'm sorry if I have insulted you,I wasn't trying to, but these seem to be facts. I will reiterate LibVets comment, "A solution in search of a problem"
You always go for the mushy argument because you have no solid reasons to back up your beliefs. Read my other posts, my solid reasons for voter I.D. laws are there and most people agree with them as indicated by poles done on this topic.
Just because your ballot feeds through an optical scanner does not mean that it was recorded correctly... Just like voting on an older lever machine cannot be verified that it was recorded correctly, if at all. There is no "foolproof" voting system whether it's paper or electronic or anything in between.
No one has really mentioned that these voter ID and list removal efforts are largely Republican initiated and are in my opinion part of a grand Republican strategy most likely initiated by Karl Rove to suppress as much of the Democratic vote as possible by any means possible. Evidently, they studied the voter demographics in the 2008 election to target areas for these efforts. Their stated primary objective since that election has been to make President Obama a one-term president which goes beyond the normal competition between the parties in other elections approaching an almost-hatred of the President for whatever reason. It is important to tell it like it is in this case. I agree that voter lists should be accurate and that only citizens should be allowed to vote but incidences of fraud are few and far between and state and local governments should be making it easier, not harder, for eligible voters to vote whatever the outcome.
Presentation of a photo ID, especially when available free-of-charge, is not too much to ask in exchange for the right to vote. I'm a liberal Democrat but even I can concede this is a reasonable expectation.
Mike:
Even if there were 700 fraudulent votes were cast in every state-wide election for the last 50 years, how many election outcomes would have been changed? Probably none.
That's not a justification for stopping voter fraud, simply a further assessment of the impact.
I support working to reduce election and voter fraud to zero, but not at the expense of denying the franchise to eligible voters.
When the REPUBLICANS are forced to use techniques to reduce voter fraud that don't impact eligible voters, the REPUBLICANS will find other ways to spend their money to cheat - Like sending robocalls to voters in Wisconsin telling them they don't have to vote if they signed the recall petition.
The comments made by Doug (?) at the end of the show seemed to me to show very little knowledge of how the average person votes. By stating that the average voter needs to know how the machine at the polling place works was ridiculous. I have been voting for almost 20 years and have NEVER used the same type of machine twice. Also, the people who work the polls in the area that I live in don't always seem well trained. To think that polling areas are going to set up the machines so that people can come in and see how they work is just nonsense. Should the burden to make sure that the machines work fall on the people, or should it be on the government?
If Democratic-controlled states had been implementing laws designed to screen out and eliminate Republican voters from election rolls, Republicans would be screaming bloody murder. Hans is full of it.
Florida's willingness to reject tens of thousands of "potentially" unqualified voters based on the "actual" fraud of 12 cases is absurd and obviously partisan at it's core. If corporate regulation were as strict based on as little evidence conservatives would be going insane at the overreach of the government. Hypocritical at a minimum. Sad and undemocratic.
Hans' overgeneralized rhetoric and dismissive attitude (characterized by snide giggles before almost every answer) are infuriating and disrespectful.
Full Proof Law & Legal Definition
The term full proof refer to evidence which satisfies the jury of the truth of a fact in dispute with exclusion of every reasonable doubt. In civil law, it may be proof by two witnesses, or by a public instrument. Proof is the establishment by evidence of a belief concerning a fact in the mind of the trier of fact or the court. Full proof can be judged from the first disclosure of a fact.
Read my post above about the documents required and the time involved to get a proper photo-id in Texas.
Then explain to me why the REPUBLICAN legislature decided that a college student's photo ID isn't valid ID for voting, but a Concealed Handgun Permit is allowed.
It's obvious to me that's because college students trend Democratic and Concealed Handgun Permit holders trend REPUBLICAN.
I'm just waiting for Republicans to require vaginal ultra-sound exams to vote.
I am so sick of the Republican lie that there is somehow massive voter fraud going on and we just don't know about it. Really, where's the evidence? All the studies point in the opposite direction - that voter fraud is miniscule. And yet Diane allows this smarmy conservative to lie like a rug on yet another "he said, she said" program. Not every issue has two equally valid points of view - sometimes the truth has a liberal bias.
Oldbrit wrote: "Then explain to me why the REPUBLICAN legislature decided that a college student's photo ID isn't valid ID for voting, but a Concealed Handgun Permit is allowed."
Is this a joke? do you have any idea at all for whats required for concealed carry?
Arkus,
First, I hardly see how math is "mushy". The rules are pretty well confirmed.
Second, I have read all your posts and there are no solid reasons you have presented for the prevention of voter fraud.
Third, you really haven't responded to my facts. The very thing you have railed against in previous posts.
Let me present it to you with out all the "Liberal" math. 800 votes is not going to change the outcome of any election, including Bush v. Gore.
"The difference is one of us thinks voter fraud is a rare non-issue and the other thinks systematically preventing blacks from voting is a non-issue."
That, Mr. Evans, is the most direct and clear statement of the actual facts.
I add that it is REPUBLICANS doing this because blacks vote Democratic. I don't know if this is rank racism and bigotry or if it is simply an easy way for REPUBLICANS to target Democratic voters.
Wow, Wendy Weiser really made the left look bad today. Lies and misrepresentation was all I heard from her today
Hans took her lies apart.
Weiser would be better off just advocating for the left, in their usual emotional sense, than trying to put forth lies as facts.
Anybody listening today understood she was going for the "Big Lie".
I am almost embarrassed for her.
Airyfairy wrote:
"I am so sick of the Republican lie that there is somehow massive voter fraud going on and we just don't know about it. Really, where's the evidence? All the studies point in the opposite direction - that voter fraud is miniscule. And yet Diane allows this smarmy conservative to lie like a rug on yet another "he said, she said" program. Not every issue has two equally valid points of view - sometimes the truth has a liberal bias."
Exactly correct. When will news organizations take their responsibility seriously and challenge the lies instead of pretending that lies on one side and facts on the other are equivalent and deserve to be aired equally and treated with equal respect?
False Equivalency is destroying our country because it allows propaganda to flourish. Goebbels would be proud.
OldBrit,
I agree with your premise of reducing the number of fraud cases to 0 which is almost where it is now. 7 in 150 years is pretty low. My premise, in my previous posts is to point out how the argument that we didn't get them all, is pretty inocolus. I am not advocating relaxing our vigilance, I am resisting hyper-vigilance.
On another note, if they start asking for vaginal ultra-sounds for voting, I'm out. I just don't have the right stuff to pass that test.
As elections have become more and more contentious, there is more and more incentive for fraud. That's primarily what is being addressed, not a motivation born of "rank racism and bigotry".
The poor and illegal have been easily manipulated by the left for years, so it is reasonable to want to ensure that those who vote are citizens and properly identified. Mr. Weyrich's statement to the contrary, conservatives and true patriots DO want everyone who is qualified to vote, to do just that. I wish there were 100% participation. I believe that conservative ideals of freedom and self-determination in a sufficiently educated population would win every time.
Arkus:
You obviously know that I wasn't suggesting that a CHL shouldn't be valid ID for voting and completely ignored my point which is that a university id isn't valid voter ID under the new REPUBLICAN attempts to intimidate and disqualify Democratic voters.
Thankfully, the REPUBLICAN voter intimidation law was set aside by the courts in Texas.
Airyfairy wrote:
" Not every issue has two equally valid points of view - sometimes the truth has a liberal bias."
So much for that "fairness doctrine", eh Airyfairy?
I think we can summarize your post as follows: You are entitled to my opinion.
Mike Sergeant wrote: "Let me present it to you with out all the "Liberal" math. 800 votes is not going to change the outcome of any election, including Bush v. Gore."
How about these and many many more! you lose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_close_election_results
Indiana's Secretary of State (a Republican) certified Rick McIntyre as the winner by 34 votes, ignoring other recounted tallies that actually showed
Louis Wyman beat John A. Durkin after several recounts. The US Senate called for a re-vote, which Durkin won by 2
Massachusetts gubernatorial election,Marcus Morton won the governorship by only two votes.[
Incumbent Republican Mike Kelly defeated Democratic challenger Karl Kassel by one vote following a recount
After the first count, Norm Coleman edged out Al Franken by 215 votes, but following a state mandated recount, Al Franken defeated Norm Coleman by 225.
Mike:
I agree with everything you said and thought I was, somewhat sarcastically, supporting your position.
When REPUBLICANS can no longer use these techniques to disqualify Democratic voters, they'll figure out other ways to cheat because REPUBLICANS are a dwindling minority and they will continue to dwindle because they refuse to promote public policy that a well-informed populace would support. -- Which is why REPUBLICANS use Goebbels big-lie propaganda techniques to trick people into voting REPUBLCUAN even though they are voting against the interests of the United States and for the interests of the uber-wealthy whose greed has so blinded them that they are willing to drive the entire planet into poverty to add a zero or two on the end of their bank balances.
Oldbrit wrote: "You obviously know that I wasn't suggesting that a CHL shouldn't be valid ID for voting and completely ignored my point which is that a university id isn't valid voter ID under the new REPUBLICAN attempts to intimidate and disqualify Democratic voters."
Concealed carry requirements are extreme, agreed.
Not going to check into college I.D.'s unless forced, but I bet their LAX, why wouldn't they be for a college? Enlighten me what are the requirements? Paid Tuition?
States do drug and alcohol tests to deny benefits. Even though alcohol is legal,unemployment benefits can be denied because employers treat alcohol in your system as an employee unable to work.
Oldbrit wrote:
"even though they are voting against the interests of the United States and for the interests of the uber-wealthy whose greed has so blinded them that they are willing to drive the entire planet into poverty to add a zero or two on the end of their bank balances."
That's about as Big a Lie as it gets, brit.
Arkus Duntov wrote:
"How about these and many many more!"
Great article, Arkus. Thanks for that. Some very interesting reading on the details of them too.
Patsy Nomore wrote: "Even though alcohol is legal,unemployment benefits can be denied because employers treat alcohol in your system as an employee unable to work"
Show me a state that denies social welfare programs based on alcohol tests. That is what you said.
Keepemhonest:
Please be careful. When you offer facts that contradict the REPUBLICAN focus-group tested lies beaten into the heads of many with Goebbels big-lie propaganda techniques, you are endangering the health of those who believe the lies.
Studies show that when REPUBLICAN lies are displaced by facts, extreme headaches can occur and on rare occasion heads have actually exploded.
ecgberht, "Great article"
Proof that nonsensical arguments can produce great insights into the truth.
Your Welcome!