Ross Douthat: "Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-04-19/ross-douthat-bad-religion-how-we-became-nation-heretics
In the years following World War II, traditional religious institutions flourished: more than half of all Americans attended weekly church services, and 70 percent were formally affiliated. Religion dominated public discourse and helped propel the civil rights movement. But the culture wars of the 1960s triggered a downward spiral for mainstream Christianity that has continued to the present day. In a new book, New York Times columnist Ross Douthat argues that this loss of a traditional, Christian center is at the heart of America’s current crisis. He says we’ve become a nation of heretics and explains what that means for our future.
Guests
Ross Douthat
Op-Ed columnist, The New York Times.
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Program Highlights
Polls consistently show that large majorities of Americans classify themselves as religious, but the number of Americans who claim no religious affiliation has nearly doubled since 1990. In a new book, New York Times columnist Ross Douthat argues this rejection of traditional religion in favor of so-called pray and grow rich churches and spiritual journey-seeking has dire consequences for American society. Douthat's new book is titled "Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics."
More Americans Don't Identify With A Specific Religion
Douthat said that the social scientist Robert Putnam has called this phenomenon of Americans not identifying with a specific religion "the rise of the nones." Some people see this as a real sign of secularization. "This is a sign that more and more people are just post-religious," Douthat said.
Is Politicization Of Religion A Reason For Alienation?
There's a perception now that "...to be a Christian is to be a Republican, right. Or that to be involved in the Episcopal Church means having endless fights over homosexuality and property disputes and so on," Douthat said. The real challenge for religious people is that it's not enough to say, "Let's get religion out of politics," he said. There has always been and always has to be room in American life for healthy expressions of religion and politics "that challenges making sure that religion influences partisanship rather than partisanship influencing religion," Douthat said, which he believes is a "tricky thing to pull off."
A Failure Of Institutional Religion
Institutional churches must "get their houses in order," Douthat said. That being said, it's too simplistic to point the finger at corrupt clergymen, the corrupt hierarch, and so on, he said. Diane pointed out that going to church won't solve the economic and social problems the U.S. is having right now. Douthat countered that going to church "can provide a useful corrective to the idea that the best way to live out your spiritual life is to sort of match your spirituality to your own impulses," he said.
You can read the full transcript here.
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perhaps Douthat has religion but not faith?
kenthenderson - well said.
The problem with institutionalized religion that it tries to control all aspects of personal lives. This spills to science and creates absurdities we witness in our Bible Belt. Most of these "religious" institutions meddle into things they should not and do not focus on our spiritual needs. I would say real heretics are ones following various dogmas of various religions.
telly evangelical -- relgion has become a caricature of itself
Douthat claims that religion is under attack. I don't see it. However, I see an onslaught of attacks against the separation of church and state. The Teapublicans are radically religious and incessant in their attacks. The "attack" which is critical to America is the assault against the citizenry that would be taken to forceibly place religon in all aspects of American social and political life if the Teapublcans succeed. I want my freedom. Religion does not want me to have it, nor do the Teapublicans.
Bad program. Ross is using the media as a sounding board and therapy for his weak faith in Christianity. He wants others to come back to the Christian Church so he can feel justified and good about staying in Catholic religion. This is what I got out of the program.
Non-believers and believers alike should try to agree to disagree..with humility and respect. Those who are dogmatic are not persuasive.
Isaiah 5:21 Woe to those who are wise in their own eyes and clever in their own sight.
Eating clams is an abomination according to the same book.
Eating clams is an abomination according to the same book.
Whether we practice worship in an institutionalized setting or not can mean risking lack of exposure to the teachings that promote a moral relationship with the world. Our lives are bombarded by sensationalization of murder mystery, adultery and violence as entertainment. Our society is raising generations that are addicted to violence as entertainment. We may attend our places of worship but gossip, violence, sex, murder and hurtful topics reign over our psyche as excitement and intrigue in the world. One can only pray for the world to recognize the difference and the choices we have. I am Catholic and my church provides exposure to goodness and the teachings of Jesus. Are we perfect, no, but the words we listen to have the message to change and renew ourselves in goodness.
All religion is faith-based; no single view can be proven or disproven. Why is the established, traitional view of any authority more wise and superior and therefore preferable? Abraham was visited by God in a dream and founded a faith system lasting centuries. Anyone could have a similar experience and make any claims whatsoever. Now we have experimental findings from neuroscience that pinpoint neuron activity during religious experience. Why not focus on the science of religion and understand how faith really works?
Furthermore, and perhaps most important, why does this author equate "finding God within" with simply feeling good about yourself and narcisism? Based on what? What is the research on this?
I find the views put forth presumptive, offensive, and beyond arrogant.
Sorry, I was trying to comment on someone else's response.
It's days like this that I really miss Christopher Hitchens. His quote from Paul of Tarsus which he read at his father's funeral bears repeating : " Finally brethren, whatsoever things that are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report: if there be any virtue and if there be any praise, think on these things."
Amen to that.
Is your guest Ross Douthat familiar with Dr. James Fowler’s research on STAGES OF FAITH?
As a teacher of the sacred who wrote my doctoral dissertation of the spiritual journey, I would suggest his research clearly explains why so many religious and spiritual people reluctantly are leaving traditional religious institutions.
According to Dr. Fowler’s research, most institutions plateau at the early stages of faiths, yet the Spirit is pulling people to grow into the next stages, and there are few people within traditional institutions able to nurture this God-given pull.
I grew up and spent decades in mainline Protestant churches. I’m passionate about developing a relationship with the Sacred. Yet, I’ve finally (at age 64) given up on churches facilitating this kind of deeper (often interior) spiritual relationship with God.
Thus, I’m involved on the outside, in small groups, with guidance from the great spiritual minds (through reading) and engagement in spiritual practices developed within religious communities, but currently no longer available through them.
Please read "god is not Great" by Christopher Hitchens.
Diane, I wish I could get you and other radio/TV journalists to look more closely at individual congregations who want nothing more than to live in the light of God. Sure there are sinful acts being committed by Christians. We are all sinners. That's why we need God. We need God, each other, and the church. Without the church my faith journey would be at a standstill.
Burke Presbyterian Church is alive and well with hundreds of volunteers serving within as well as without the church. We are not a large church but we have a big heart. I think you would find our orphanage and school in Kibwezi, Kenya, an inspiration. We have thriving children's and youth programs which involve community mission in addition to study and music. We currently have a Spanish congregation which shares our building. In the past we had a Jewish congregation sharing our facilities. Look at www.burkepreschurch.org and I feel sure you will agree that just because the media says Christianity is a disappointment doesn't make it true.
And in the new Testament (which perfects the Old):
Not that which goeth into the mouth defileth a man; but that which cometh out of the mouth, this defileth a man. Matthew 15:11 KJV
You have to admire right wingers.WOW,are they tenacious One person goes into a church and makes a selfless contribution into the poor box.Another person goes into the church and STEALS from the poor box. Those are equally righteous to these demented minds.Pat Robertson equal to Dr.Martin Luther King ? LOL.Not in my lifetime.
First, I respect the right of all Americans to believe as they see fit. As a Christian, I wonder if the entire book could be based on the concept of idolatry of self. For example, the belief of those on the right that they have the ability to narrowly defined who God is and what God wants. Also, the belief on the left that we have the ability within ourselves to understand all on our own. I believe at the center of good theology is humility and mystery.
Mark 7
6-8 Jesus replied, “You hypocrites, Isaiah described you beautifully when he wrote—‘This people honours me with their lips, but their heart is far from me. And in vain they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men’. You are so busy holding on to the traditions of men that you let go the commandment of God!”
Today we treat the commandments of God as merely the traditions of men.
FAITH CHARACTERIZATION AND OUR FUTURE
One cogent idea is that the austerity, morality, and calls to service that characterize the "faith" of the Great Depression-WW2 generation are quite different than the egoistic, therapeutic, profit based "faith" characterizing the post-WW2 generation, born into a "cornucopia" of wealth and opportunity [that is now at risk]. So, whether talking about religious or political dogmas and their respective appeal or lack of appeal to the body politic, it is therefore the mindset of the post-Baby Boomers that will rule, as they grow into power. So, is that the mindset of Sesame Street and Teletubbies and Harry Potter? Is it the mindset of Marx and Obama? Is it the mindset of The Hunger Games? Is it the mindset of Romney or Ryan or Gingrich or Cuomo or Clinton? Is it the mindset of the World Wrestling Federation, "Reality" TV, Donald Trump -- or, the Ultimate Fighter? And what will be the consequence of disillusionment with the political process, which must mimic disillusionment with institutional religion and institutional television? Disillusionment may be cyclical, so the current falling out with institutional "Faith" as a result of scandals and oppressions will sooner or later give birth to new religious institutions and to revivification of the traditional institutions. The same may be expected in politics. As "chance favors the prepared mind", we must do our best to pick and promote the best "prepared minds" of the post-Baby Boomers (may we even know, who they may be). It may be crucial for the mental health of our democracy that we develop extensive national service, military and non-military. We should vote for the presidential candidate, who calls for such service -- may there be such a candidate! Otherwise inevitable leadership must then come from only the mercenary ranks; it may already be too late to prevent the totalitarian future of our nightmares -- religious or anti-religious!
Diane, as always you handled the interview with precision and grace! Love your show.
“The Hebrew faith with division over Jerusalem.”
Uh Diane, there is no such “faith”. Hebrew is a language, the religion you are trying to refer to is Judaism.
And I know of no great division about Jerusalem within that faith.
The guest contradicted himself often during the interview.
But really, since the colonial period, bad religion has been oozing into the country.
Consider James Marsh at University of Vermont and the introduction of cambridge platinizing (coleridge) and German Idealism that found its way into the Western Addition where Ohio is known for towers of power, etc. Note from this the rise of universalism-unitarianism struggle for supremacy v scotch irish presbyterianism via Scottish realism. Think of the presbyterian pea soup along the ohio river as schismatic churches popped up across the banks over blue light, inner light nonsense, and other dubious factions, etc.
I maintain real battle in American thinking as it affects religion can be summarized as a cross hatch where X is divide between freedom-nature (in Dooyeweerdian thinking) and (horizontal axis) Y is divide between rationalism and irrationalism (Vollenhoven). Everything gets accounted for in that schema
That's american intellectual history in a nutshell.
As a Ecumenical person I think he has chosen some of the New age teachers that are main stream and therefore somewhat simplistic.There is a whole area of spirituality that does not look for God inside. This movement is more like Echhardt Tolle. The idea of You as pure awareness and conscious love. This is about being conscious and seeing without concept. Thomas Merton talk about this. “the ground of being” It has no politics. It is direct experience of the interconnectiveness of all beings.
I hope that is helpful
I find the comments of others interesting and I actually am pleased that we are a nation of spirituality because that is what will unite us rather than being separated by the confines of religion, a man-made invention.
I appreciated Diane's attempts to move the author beyond his limited viewpoints and recognize that, although some people need to have a religious framework from which to judge their "ego" voices. More and more people are becoming responsible for their own behaviors because they understand what is right on their own. Religion has done so much harm to us as humans while growing spirituality helps us to see beyond the limited judgmentalism of religion to the unity of all creation. This is the path that will continue to move us into a world where war is no longer a reality.
I am ordained and served many years as a "World Fellowship" pastor, teaching spiritual truths from all world religions, including Christianity. Our religious beliefs are an "accident" of our birth, an "accident" many of us choose to move out of and into a greater search for our understanding of God/Spirit. The author wants to keep people confined in rituals that no longer serve their spirit. There is an amazing world out here where people of faith come together from all paths that lead to God, not just the Christian path.
The issue with Catholics and most religions as Diane said IS institutional structure. To admit the Catholic abuse scandal had an impact is not enough. The guest had a chance to firmly condemn this blatant defiance of the law. This is why people are not going to church. (An easy answer to why they should go is that attending the Liturgical services and participating in its cyclical calendar is a spiritual necessity - read a few saints, notably John Chrysostom). While he has a point we cannot necessarily pick a church that agrees with us, there are countless examples of where the (Catholic) church has changed. They no longer use Latin, they don't keep the fast (regularly), don't believe the earth is flat, nor burn people at the stake. However, the larger point is when the Church offends, harms, or breaks the law, it should apologize, atone and repent. This is what its own theology teaches its members to do, by the way.
The problem here is not individualism. We have a current-day hatred of institutions that ignore laws to suit their needs. Countless dictators and indeed church officials have ignored law or used position to justify their actions. Americans are aware of this ruse. They see decades of greed, war, hypocrisy and complicity, as well as the wealth institutions have gained or squandered. They have had enough. Further, they care (regardless of a national policy) about human rights, and see Catholics (especially) disregarding them, unless it is for the unborn. While individual morals may not be what the Catholic Church demands, these same morals must be lived by its clergy and heirarchy. After all, these institutions are supposed to be like Jesus too. Nothing in the Gospels states Jesus was a free-market for profit capitalist who said "do as I say, and you may not question me." In fact, I recall that questioning Him was the route by which he preached many a parable. The author and his beloved church may take note.
Diane, thank you for being politely combative. Your guests comments, while trying to overtalk the host, would have rendered him out of my home before dinner. You are patient and the utmost professional. Rehm must mean integrity.
The guest needs a course in Eastern Orthodox Theology. His logic and selective version of history may be answered by this study. The Orthodox are the ones his Catholics split from - for reasons he now complains exist in the secular world. And, Orthodox are encouraged to question, explore, and yet believe. Maybe he hasn't heard of this, or was told he couldn't ask...
I turned the radio on just in time to hear Douthat explain that Christian moraity is superior to any other morality because of the New Testament. This is an extremely arrogant claim backed by nothing more than his own personal bias towards his brand of religion. In effect, he claimed that any person that doesn't believe and follow the New Testament has an inferior moral code.
Therefore, anyone who believes that they are justified in using god's power to exact revenge on a fig tree for not producing fruit when it is out of season is somehow morally superior than someone who doesn't believe this nonsense?
Hilarious.
And the biggest moral statement of the New Testament, IMO, is that it is OK to send heretics to an eternal torture chamber for not believing.
I fail to see how any Christian can claim to have a superior morality because of the New Testament.
Not to mention that Douthat seems to be forgetting that the Old Testament is the fundamental foundation of his beliefs, and we can go on and on about the kind of morality that it represents. God kills almost every living thing on the planet because he's not happy with the way people are acting?
Some great moral teachings there...