Ross Douthat: "Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-04-19/ross-douthat-bad-religion-how-we-became-nation-heretics
In the years following World War II, traditional religious institutions flourished: more than half of all Americans attended weekly church services, and 70 percent were formally affiliated. Religion dominated public discourse and helped propel the civil rights movement. But the culture wars of the 1960s triggered a downward spiral for mainstream Christianity that has continued to the present day. In a new book, New York Times columnist Ross Douthat argues that this loss of a traditional, Christian center is at the heart of America’s current crisis. He says we’ve become a nation of heretics and explains what that means for our future.
Guests
Ross Douthat
Op-Ed columnist, The New York Times.
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Program Highlights
Polls consistently show that large majorities of Americans classify themselves as religious, but the number of Americans who claim no religious affiliation has nearly doubled since 1990. In a new book, New York Times columnist Ross Douthat argues this rejection of traditional religion in favor of so-called pray and grow rich churches and spiritual journey-seeking has dire consequences for American society. Douthat's new book is titled "Bad Religion: How We Became a Nation of Heretics."
More Americans Don't Identify With A Specific Religion
Douthat said that the social scientist Robert Putnam has called this phenomenon of Americans not identifying with a specific religion "the rise of the nones." Some people see this as a real sign of secularization. "This is a sign that more and more people are just post-religious," Douthat said.
Is Politicization Of Religion A Reason For Alienation?
There's a perception now that "...to be a Christian is to be a Republican, right. Or that to be involved in the Episcopal Church means having endless fights over homosexuality and property disputes and so on," Douthat said. The real challenge for religious people is that it's not enough to say, "Let's get religion out of politics," he said. There has always been and always has to be room in American life for healthy expressions of religion and politics "that challenges making sure that religion influences partisanship rather than partisanship influencing religion," Douthat said, which he believes is a "tricky thing to pull off."
A Failure Of Institutional Religion
Institutional churches must "get their houses in order," Douthat said. That being said, it's too simplistic to point the finger at corrupt clergymen, the corrupt hierarch, and so on, he said. Diane pointed out that going to church won't solve the economic and social problems the U.S. is having right now. Douthat countered that going to church "can provide a useful corrective to the idea that the best way to live out your spiritual life is to sort of match your spirituality to your own impulses," he said.
You can read the full transcript here.
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“Archaeology, physics, and molecular biology have shown religious myths to be false and man-made. And yet, nearly 230 million Americans believe that a book showing neither unity of style nor internal consistency was authored by an omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent deity”.
But then we also find Dancing With The Stars and Glee more important than any form of national discourse or rational discussion.
Now couple that together with the Walmart-ization of religion with giant black box churches, rock bands, light shows, etc…..and you have a recipe for idiocy on a grand scale. America is a declining empire.
The evidence is simply everywhere.
It is interesting to me that Mr. Douthat's limited govt, free-market approach stops at the door of the church. When it comes to political govt, he wants less. But when it comes to church governance, he wants it to have more power and be more centralized. And while he applauds the free-market economy, he questions the free religious markets' steering us toward secularism. He should remember, the very notion of orthodoxy versus heresy was the result of a big centralized gov't known as the Roman Empire which legislated the Nicene Creed for the whole of the Roman Empire, creating what has been labeled Christiandom. Our limited constitutional gov't and the mandate of a religious free market, if you will, has lead to our heretical ways. That's the price we pay. And what is the alternative? Stronger church governance and structures, is Mr. Douthat's probable answer. But why not even more limited, less centralized church governance? Why not allow individual churches to hire married priests? It is certainly seen as a major issue in recruiting more priests, which would necessarily make the church stronger. What's more, such a limited, less centralized approach is working for the Pentecostals (possible heretics) and the Buddhists (positively heretics), after all.
Why this a picture of Mark Driscoll on the story? I've been following news about the book closely and have read the first hundred pages and am pretty sure it has little or nothing to say about Driscoll. More to the point I don't think Driscoll falls into Douthat's characterization of a heretic. He's actually one of the very few public figures who is completely comfortable with the concept of heresy in its pure historical form.
Heretic
A person believing in or practicing religious heresy. A person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.
Who cares, generally speaking if you find yourself in a like minded herd on any topic your probably on the wrong path.
How can America become a nation of heretics when Christianity was not and is not the state religion? It was a religion by de facto forced onto most Americans for decades by local, state and federal governments in violation of the First Amendment. We are a secular nation by the authority of the constitution. Now that people are realizing the many falsehoods of Christianity and other organized religions they are being called heretics, ungodly, people who wage war on Christianity and many other terrible names because they are exercising their religious freedom. I left Christianity in 1975 when I became aware of the false hoods. I am SOUL and a co-worker with GOD.
We were not founded as a Nation, but as separate Colonies.
From the Constitution of West New Jersey, 1681.
“No man nor number of men upon earth have power or authority to rule over men’s consciences in religious matters: therefore it is ordained, that no person or persons whatsoever within said Province, shall at any time hereafter, in any way or upon any pretense whatsoever, be called into question, or in the least punished or hurt, either in person, privilege, or estate, for the sake of his opinion, judgment, faith, or worship, in matters or religion… that no one should be incapable of office by reason of his faith and worship”
It would be difficult to find any instrument, in representative government, more democratic, or more liberal, in matters of religious faith. Not even a belief in the Deity, was necessary to human equality, while the State of New Jersey, excluded from office all who did not profess belief in the faith of some Protestant sect.
The dissenters and outcasts from Europe who built these colonies 100 years before our founding had strong ideas about religious dissent. The Founders who added religious tests seem unprincipled by comparison.
Who are you quoting? I work in research and I can comfortably tell you that not all is known and it's impossible to "prove God doesn't exist." That contention is absurd. On the other hand, I believe that science is how God's creation is revealed to us. I don't try to convince people, however, to believe in God, but I do expect that atheists and agnostics show a little respect and not go off the rails with their religious beliefs in science--not what's real and proven but what they believe that science will one day prove.
libertarians r us wrote:
"Heretic
A person believing in or practicing religious heresy. A person holding an opinion at odds with what is generally accepted.
Who cares, generally speaking if you find yourself in a like minded herd on any topic your probably on the wrong path."
You mean like libertarians?
Oh dear! Someone has suggested that the Bible was written by The Almighty. Apparently he's never read the Bible. The only thing written by God were the Ten Commandments. The Bible itself was written by many different humans.
I will agree though that America is in a state of decline. Every great nation that ever suggested has declined and/or ceased to exist. That is the fate of all societies; they never last forever.
But it's not because of religion. It's because the human race is not particularly intelligent. If we were intelligent, we wouldn't repeat, all through history, the same mistakes that bring us down.
The agents considered for firing will not ride off into the sunset and file for unemployment. Rather a job will materialize via some good old boy within the good old boy network. Any male allowed into the secret club of secret service and fired for hiring a prostitute will be welcomed into some other niche of the good old boy system. Laughs over beers will occur,because all males have either hired a prostitute or at least understand the theory. Lastly ,if females were hired for ss ,maybe this incident will not repeat itself so fast again
In point of fact, the Pilgrims left the United Provinces because they were afraid of the relative religious liberty there; once they and their Puritan brothers/competitors were unsafely esconced in the New World, they wasted no time in imposing their religious customs on all who were too weak to resist them.
Roger Williams was a great exception to the rule, but he was motivated by a profound belief in predestination which made any attempt to impose religion useless, and believed in being nice to the unsaved until they reached their deserved torment after death.
How can the doctrine of 'original sin', and its apotheosis in the doctrine of 'total depravity', not be completely at odds with democracy, and for that matter with valuing a free market at all---if men are by nature sinful, why pay attention to their desires and aspirations? Their wills, as Augustine of Hippo noted, are contingent, and so ever depart from the LORD's.
God has already made his intentions plain, at least when they're interpreted by powerful, Godly, men for the rest of us, in the form of the voices in my shepherd ancestors' heads, the propaganda of my royal and priestly ancestors, and the Greek and Aramaic scribblings of some heretics.
Gordon Gecko,"Greed is good". Christianity today,"Greed is good".........BYE !
When Americans and people around the world watch and listen to Presidential candidates parade their alleged religious beliefs across the national stage claiming they are pro life but stand against health care for all, equity in education, living wages the distance between their alleged pro life beliefs which are really pro fetus beliefs....sure fits into the definition of HERETICS
Santorum is a perfect example of this. Many others
The God within is practiced by Quakers. Hicksites call it: 'The Inner Light.'
"Who made Calvin the arbiter of all the sects, ... why does he write so many books about manifest truth?... In view of the uncertainty we must define the heretic simply as one with whom we disagree." Sebastian Castellio, Concerning heretics, whether they are to be persecuted, quoted in Grayling, 2007, pp 53-54 taken from Pinker, 2011 The Better Anges of our Nature... p. 144.
Mr. Douthat fails both in his book and his columns to reconcile the politics he promotes: authoritarian, medievalish rightwing moralism supporting the wealthy with his own movement through a variety of Christian religions.
His own hypocrisy in feeding the partisan divisions which have been largely created by the rightwing bigots and cynical plutocrats currently infecting the Republican "Christian" party.
Diane,
Please remind the speaker that the "moral values" of the 2004 election were limited to two things:
1. Preventing gay Americans from getting married and
2. Forcing pregnant women to give birth.
These are not "moral values" that most Americans share.
I'm sorry, but despite implicit claims to the contrary, it sounds like Mr. Douthat is attempting to revive the Inqisition but in a 21st century manner. Branding people who don't practice his way as
"heretic" is an exercise in self-righteous posturing that calls for more critical inquiry and andshould be laughed out of a sound democracy.
Ah Diane...me too. Look at a homeless person..pray.. hand some money over....look at a tree..pray...walk..pray. Learned to pray at a very young age..cultivated the mystery. under the guidance of Notre Dame nuns ... grew up Catholic.but walked away from that church because of all of the contradictions. Can your guest please address how many people use their alleged religious beliefs to hide selfish, destructive, views and actions behind some of the symbols and shields of different religions?
Is the guest familiar with the history of religion in America prior to the 1940s?
Mike Sergeant
Free yourself Mike and join us
Definition of LIBERTARIAN
1: an advocate of the doctrine of free will
2a : a person who upholds the principles of individual liberty especially of thought and action
Why does Mr. Douthat feel that you need to be "churched" by a religious institution to be moral? There are millions of people all over the world who inherently know personal responsibility and moral goodness on their own through common sense and upbringing, religion is NOT required for this.
We have to remember that the Gospel is a story with promises. The Gospel is news that comes from outside of us, just like the news of the day arrives on your doorstep in the form of a newspaper. You cannot completely rely on the voice within. You have listen to the historical story in the Bible and become familiar with the promises of God. The story tells you about the character of God. You have to rely on what God has revealed of himself.
The argument was made that a structure must be utilized against which to weigh thoughts of meditation to insure that thoughts are "spiritual" or "appropriate" and not just the ego. How do you insure that that structure being used as the ruler or canon is not steeped in ego itself. How do you insure that the your interpretation of the structure or established religion/belief system is not steeped in ego. The whole point of meditation is to go past ego anyways is it not. To me the original point is ostensibly a mask for a new type of fundamentalism.
I jokingly tell my friends that I'm a "recovering Catholic." I was raised in the Catholic Church and attended mass regularly through college (I went to a Catholic university). However, as I spent more time "in the real world," I could not reconcile Christian politics with the core message of Jesus, to "love your neighbor as yourself."
I have spent the past 10 years struggling with how I fit into this world of established religions and what I see as the crux of faith. Now, I consider myself a liberal religious person, and I practice the golden rule as an expression of my faith in the existence of something much larger than myself.
Christianity is on the decline due to the demonstrable absurdity of many Christian doctrines. It is a paternalistic, mysoginistic, homophobic, belief system which cannot square its central mythologies with true scientific discoveries, such as evolution, cosmology, anthropology, etc.
I understand what Ross is saying with the examined religious experience. I experience Temporal Lobe Partial Complex Seizures, that feel very much like a spiritual epiphany. Their connection with my condition do not diminish the moments I have, but I have had enough seizures to know how to contextualize them, and allow myself the understanding of what happens as well as the feelings of mental awakening or wonder. My moments are religious, physical, and medical, and I accept and let go over fear through this well-rounded understanding. Sometimes it can be to easy for individuals to be drawn to spirituality because it is about the self. I have learned to let it be a part of me, but not to disregard the larger world experience, or romanticize and get lost in those mystical moments. It took a while, but I can let it be.
I am in a 12 step program that the center is a "God or our own understanding". Religion is not needed for recovery and finding a good happy life with service. One may get strange ideas through prayer and meditation but we have a network of people to bring these ideas to. This works very well without organized religion. Thank you.
John
Cat is exactly right. What century is this guy from?
And why should I join my "mainstream" church when I am not satisfied with how they are handling the child molestation scandal?