The Politics of Guns in America
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-04-17/politics-guns-america
Five years ago a gunman killed 32 people on the Virginia Tech campus in America's worst mass shooting. Two years ago a gunman critically wounded former Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords and killed six people. Two months ago teenager Travon Martin was shot and killed by a neighborhood watch volunteer in Florida. Each time a tragedy involving firearms becomes national news, advocacy groups and politicians call for stricter gun control. But little action has resulted. Pro-gun groups argue violent crime in the U.S. is a major reason to expand gun rights, so more Americans can protect themselves. Diane and her guests will explore the politics of gun control.
Guests
E.J. Dionne Jr.
senior fellow, The Brookings Institution, columnist, Washington Post and author of the forthcoming book, "Our Divided Political Heart: The Battle for the American Idea in an Age of Discontent."
Daniel Webster
co-director, Center for Gun Policy and Research at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health.
John Velleco
director of federal affairs, Gun Owners of America.
Comments
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The Citizens United law by the SCOTUS guaranteed the American people will be victim of the extortion politics,and extortion economics,until this odorous law is repealed.
All the NRA needs to do is threaten a politician with millions in ads running against them,to force surrender,regardless of the common sense need.
In business,taxpayers are held up by corporations with threats of moving or closing.
Its so bad here in Ohio,A.L.E.C. a front group for corporate extortionists are writing our laws,policy,and even the tax code.By one report,Ohio taxpayers have doled out $270 million in extortion payments,then laid off cops and teachers to subsidize the scam. More than one company received millions of our tax dollars just to move the corporate HQ from one burb to another. DISGUSTING !!!!!
Let's get something straight from the start "Gun Owners of America" and the "NRA" are donation driven organizations that represent those of us who value our constitutional rights for private gun ownership. It's not some faceless corporate interest, it is the "People' the same ones in The Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution.
Patsy Nomore wrote: 'Ohio taxpayers have doled out $270 million in extortion payments,then laid off cops and teachers to subsidize the scam.'
Ohio's fiscal mess can be laid at the feet of public labor unions and to the democrat party candidates they bought. The voters of Ohio had a golden opportunity to turn the financial mess around and chose to bow to the fear mongering from the left. Ohio's $8 BILLION dollar budget deficit and greedy unions was the reason for the lay offs.
The politics of liberals has remained the same on this subject for the last 40 + years. Unless liberals concede what the SCOTUS has determined, that the 2nd Amendment is an individual right, not a collective one, why does the DR show consider this topic newsworthy?
USA Today Newspaper Articles
◦"We will never fully solve our nation's horrific problem of gun violence unless we ban the manufacture and sale of handguns and semi-automatic assault weapons." 29 Dec 93
"A bill requiring all handguns to be given to the government will be introduced Tuesday by Sen. John Chafee." 1 Jun 92
LOS ANGELAS TIMES Newspaper Article
◦"Why should America adopt a policy of near-zero tolerance for private gun ownership?...who can still argue compellingly that Americans can be trusted to handle guns safely? We think the time has come for Americans to tell the truth about guns. They are not for us, we cannot handle them." 28 Dec 93
DIANE FEINSTEIN (California Senator, author of "Feinstein Amendment" which became the '94 gun ban)
◦"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them 'Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in,' I would have done it." (60 Minutes episode, CBS)
SARAH BRADY (Chairman, Handgun Control, Inc.)
◦"There is no personal right to be armed for private purposes unrelated to the service in a well regulated militia." (Richmond Times-Dispatch, 6 June 97, pg. 6)
"I don't believe gun owners have rights. The Second Amendment has never been interpreted that way and every court case that's ever come down has shown that." ("Guns in America: Part III", Hearst Newspaper 1997)
What the Founding Fathers Meant by the "Militia"
Tenche Coxe: "Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom. Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American... The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." – Tenche Coxe, The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788.
Thomas Jefferson: "And what country can preserve its liberties, if its rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms... The tree of Liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants.", letter to William S. Smith, 1787, in S. Padover (Ed.), Jefferson, On Democracy (1939), p. 20.
Thomas Jefferson In his Commonplace Book, Jefferson quotes Cesare Beccaria from his seminal work, On Crimes and Punishment: “Laws that forbid the carrying of arms... disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes... Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man.”
Thomas Jefferson: "A strong body makes the mind strong. As to the species of exercises, I advise the gun. While this gives moderate exercise to the body, it gives boldness, enterprise and independence to the mind. Games played with the ball and others of that nature, are too violent for the body and stamp no character on the mind. Let your gun therefore be the constant companion of your walks." Encyclopedia of T. Jefferson, 318 (Foley, Ed., 1967).
Sir George Tucker: "The right of self-defense is the first law of nature; in most governments it has been the study of rulers to confine this right within the narrowest possible limits...and [when] the right of the people to keep and bear arms is, under any color or pretext whatsoever, prohibited, liberty, if not already annihilated, is on the brink of destruction." – Sir George Tucker, Judge of the Virginia Supreme Court and U.S. District Court of Virginia in I Blackstone COMMENTARIES Sir George Tucker Ed., 1803, pg. 300 (App.)
George Washington: "A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
IMPORTANT NOTE: Back in the 18th century, a "regular" army meant an army that had standard military equipment. So a "well regulated" army was simply one that was "well equipped" and organized. It does not refer to a professional army. The 17th century folks used the term "standing army" or "regulars" to describe a professional army. Therefore, "a well regulated militia" only means a well equipped militia that was organized and maintained internal discipline. It does not imply the modern meaning of "regulated," which means controlled or administered by some superior entity. Federal control over the militia comes from other parts of the Constitution, but not from the Second Amendment.
Two comments:
First, assuming that the NRA and its members do not think that guns should be sold to anyone and everybody in the United States with absolutely no restrictions, it would be interesting to hear their suggestions on how we keep those who should not be allowed to purchase guns from buying guns. All I seem to hear from them are objections to any restrictions that are suggested.
Second, one idea is to develop a national list of people who want to purchase guns and are approved to do so. Anyone wanting to purchase a gun, or who thinks they might want to purchase a gun in the future would request that their name be put on the list. If there is reason that they should not be allowed to purchase a gun, their request would be denied. If the denial was in error, they would have the right to appeal. Then, if and when they go to purchase a gun, the store can check the list of approved gun purchasers. This might help prevent at least people who shouldn't have guns from purchasing them legally.
The Constitution speaks of a well regulated militia. I wonder if that was supposed to include idiots shooting bullets into the air to celebrate New Years Eve (and other holidays), without regard to what happens when the bullets come back down (and hit someone)?
Did that include idiots who decide to handle their "road rage" by shooting at the offending car?
Did that include idiots who shoot their wives, girlfriends (etc.) in beauty salons, restaurants, and other public venues, and also kill everyone in sight?
Did that include the host of mentally and emotionally unstable individuals who, using legally purchased weapons, demonstrate they had no business owning firearms in the first place?
Answer: NO!
The Constitution expressly states that it is the Congress which "shall provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining the militia". Art. 1, Sec. 8, Paragraph 16. At most the Second Amendment only affected the "arming" part. It's time Congress did its job of insuring that those who "keep and bear arms" are a well regulated militia, and not just a rag tag band of Dirty Harry wannabees, prone to violence without any discipline.
Responsible gun owners should be the first to applaud this. (The NRA, and related groups, don't qualify.)
These days when the NRA speaks publicly,they sound exactly the same as the KKK,Neo Nazi`s, Para-military militia hate groups,Skin heads,al Qaeda, or the T-Party.
Their goals are the same,'make everyone afraid to come out of their homes'. The NRA is winning. Just a trip to the store means you`re risking your life.
Help me understand. What's so big about owning a gun ? Or, a handgun or plural of each ?
I mean, really, why is it so feverishly important ?
I understand there's this American principle that if "We the People" want to depose the government that one fine day they could stage an uprising, haul out their collections and take the government back. I don't see how that'd work actually being up against the military 'n all (which, ironically, has had the die hard support of gun owners all along) and would, presumably, fight for the government and against this militia of duffers.
I can see how important it was in 1776, or 1876 for that matter - but alas, it's now the 21st century. In this day and age, private gun ownership seems more of a curse that far outweighs "the right" - and any rational country would act in a way such that the fewer guns/loose cannons around, the better.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
wilson wrote: "All I seem to hear from them are objections to any restrictions that are suggested."
First, everyone who buys a gun through a gun dealer fills out a form 4473 the gun dealer calls the FBI for a background check, if you have been convicted of a federal crime NO sale. Also there are many many state laws also involving gun sales. It is not an open market free for all that many gun banners like to portray.
wilson wrote: "'one idea is to develop a national list of people who want to purchase guns and are approved to do so. Anyone wanting to purchase a gun, or who thinks they might want to purchase a gun in the future would request that their name be put on the list. If there is reason that they should not be allowed to purchase a gun, their request would be denied. If the denial was in error, they would have the right to appeal."
What part of "infringed" do you not understand, a national list always leads to government confiscation, every country that I am aware of that has developed such lists sooner or later goes down the gun ban road "slippery slope" . Criminals do not pay attention to any laws, punishing the law abiding is not an option.
Every freedom has a cost, a free people are expected to be intelligent enough understand this basic concept and preserve freedom given the chance.
NrthOfTheBorder wrote:
"I can see how important it was in 1776, or 1876 for that matter - but alas, it's now the 21st century. In this day and age, private gun ownership seems more of a curse that far outweighs "the right" - and any rational country would act in a way such that the fewer guns/loose cannons around, the better."
Arrogant nonsense, tell that to the people of Louisiana who in the flood were systematically disarmed by the police and left defenseless against both criminals and renegade cops. The tranquility of the 21 century in north America is not as unbreakable as you seem to think it is. We only need to look south of the border where the law abiding citizen is disarmed by law and the criminal element including their government rule.
Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:" It's time Congress did its job of insuring that those who "keep and bear arms" are a well regulated militia, and not just a rag tag band of Dirty Harry wannabees, prone to violence without any discipline."
As a congressman rightly told the president "you lie"
See above!
Anyone can see the D.R. panel is 3 anti second amendment against 1 pro second amendment panelists including the gun hating Diane. Hey Diane, ever hear about Fast and Furious??
I lived for a time in Switzerland, where, because they did not have a standing army, their “militia” consisted of issuing every adult male a weapon (the 5.56x45mm Sig 550 rifle for enlisted personnel) and requiring military training and reserve service until the age of 30. At that time, he could choose to give the weapon back or keep it.
Perhaps the US could follow this model “in order to maintain a ‘well regulated militia,’” issue every adult male a firearm that would have been in use at the time the Bill of Rights was passed – black powder, perhaps -- without ammunition; force them to undergo military training and then serve in the reserves until the age of 30. The purchase or ownership of any other firearm would require a permit.
This way, no one could cite the first phrase of the amendment in defense of gun ownership.
What about our right to be FREE FROM gun violence?
"Fast and Furious". A government sting that put assault weapons into gun dealers stores and tracked the result.
The right wing extremists and the NRA are hopping mad that they`ve been outed. That these weapons are NOT winding up in the hands of honest 'good ol boy' citizens,but in the hands of terrorists,criminals,and the mentally insane.
I urge your panel to address Dan Baum's "Happiness is a worn gun," a story in the August 2010 issue of Harper's Weekly, about a liberal American man who has adopted conceal & carry.
Firearms technology is one of the oldest known to man. If one could wave a magic wand and transfer all of the guns in the world to the moon, I could have a gun by tomorrow. A piece of steel pipe from Home Depot, Charcoal from your bar-b-que grill, common fertilizer from your garden, some large fishing weights from Walmart... Soon you will have a .60 cal pistol that will kill a bear.
Lib-r-us Thanks for your reply. I'm not sure about "arrogant nonsense" and you don't really answer my main point about going up against the government....but anyway.
Okay. Is this reasonable? Katrina was a rare event no? I mean how often does the country get hit by a category 5 hurricane (or other disaster) and chaos rules? ie What are the chances - everyone armed (is I suppose the kind of country you'd want) that you - as a gun owner - would have the remotest chance to prevail against criminals and rogue cops? I see the picture...but is it real or is your's a romantic paranoid-tinged fantasy?
Meanwhile, what about the rest of us? I see gun-toting 'citizens' as a threat to my safety - accidental shootings, guns stolen, road rage address by popping off a few 'n all. You may have the 'right' but I'll put faith in a well-trained cop long before I vote to let this nightmare get the better of common sense and decency.
E.J. just doesn't understand firearms. The so-called "Assault Weapon" is nothing more than a regular semi-automatic weapon. But just to let E.J. know, A Remington Wethermaster 700 is a semi-automatic hunting rifle that has far more killing power than most of the "Assault Weapons" that he wants to ban. It fires just as fast.
I am curious as to the ratio of women who want guns in their home vs. those who do not. Has anyone polled the average Jane on this issue? Peronally, the thought of a gun in our home makes our skin crawl - and we are a military family that is up front about the power of weapons with our children.
It's important for gun ban zealots to use the term "Gun Lobby" it links gun rights activists with publicly hated Washington "lobbyists".
The issue in the Treyvon Martin case is that the citizen was acting as a policeman when he had not the authority, or more importantly, the training. He followed a person and in defiance of police instructions, left his car. He put himself in harm's way. Young Mr. Martin was exercising his right to stand his ground. Mr. Zimmerman at that point says he was in fear for his life. Maybe. Stand your ground protects you legally after you have done what is instinct, protect yourself and others.
Dennis, Indianapolis IN
I realize that your program today is about the POLITICS of gun ownership more so than advocacy one way or the other, but another general point:
Israeli bus drivers and school teachers carry guns. "That's different -- they are in a state of perpetual war," you say? Think again -- we have weekly school shootings in this country.
See John Giduck's "Terror at Beslan," about the hostage taking in Russia by Chechan extremeists in 2004, an event that largely fell under the radar of the American press. Over 1000 schoolkids were taken hostage and 380 killed! Muslim extremists have acknowledged that this was a "dry run" for a similar even that they could plan in the United States.
Now, tell me... what compassionate parent would ever send their kid to a public school again if a terrorist event on this scale were to occur in US schools or school buses?
2 comments: The Car vs Gun logic is flawed. If the car is parked or the gun is on a table, nothing happens. It's the person behind the wheel or at the trigger that are the issues. Guns don't kill, people do. Same for cars.
If you support gun control, please explain how it's working in Washington DC? It's the most dangerous place to live in the country.
Nice commentary.
You make a good point, because there are far, far, far, more 'good citizens' than criminals, no matter what the news and TV drama may tell you. Criminals are at most around 1% or 2% of the population, and those are lax estimates; as such, 98 solid citizens with a 5% chance of shooting wrongfully are more dangerous than the 2% with a 50% chance of shooting wrongfully.
My experience from 4 years in the Marine Corps and 61 years of rubbing elbows with "good old boys" has been that small minded men with small "assets" are usually the ones who must have guns in their possession.
NrthOfTheBorder wrote: "as a gun owner - would have the remotest chance to prevail against criminals and rogue cops? I see the picture...but is it real or is your's a romantic paranoid-tinged fantasy?"
Right, it looks to me those sandal wearing Taliban are causing fits for the greatest most well equipped army on earth.
Look, you hate guns and want them banned, got it!