Stand Your Ground and Concealed Weapons Laws
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-04-03/stand-your-ground-and-concealed-weapons-laws
Protests against the killing in Florida of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin continue in cities and on college campuses across the country. The case has focused attention on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which says a person may use deadly force in self-defense if under threat of harm, with no duty to retreat. Nearly half of states have some form of the law. Critics contend it's dangerous and promotes "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" mentalities. Supporters argue that every citizen should have a legal right to defend himself, or herself, in life-threatening situations. Guest host Tom Gjelten of NPR and a panel of experts will discuss whether Stand Your Ground laws and permitting people to carry concealed weapons have made Americans safer.
Guests
John Velleco
director of federal affairs at Gun Owners of America.
Elizabeth Megale
assistant professor of law, Barry University Law School.
Dan Gross
president, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
John Donohue III
economist, lawyer and professor at Stanford Law School.
Comments
Please familiarize yourself with our Code of Conduct and Terms of Use before posting your comments.
ecarter wrote:
"I've observed a heightened and exaggerated sense of danger among friend, family, and coworkers who listen to right-wing radio and FOX news. As someone who luckily lives in one of the safest small cities in the USA, I was saddened to learn of an elderly relative's fear of leaving her home based upon her daily diet of FOX news and Rush L. When I told her that our community had one of the lowest crime rates in the USA, she was amazed. Really? I had to show her proof before she stopped worrying about someone breaking into her home or killing me on my drive home. "
And Jared Loughner shot Gabby Giffords because Sarah Palin had a target on her website ... or some such nonsense!
Thanks for the laugh, ecarter! The only paranoia at work here is yours ... with respect to Fox News and/or Rush Limbaugh. Do you have any ... oh ... I don't know ... EVIDENCE to support your contention that either fear-mongers ... or is it just your "observation" and your anecdote about your grand mum?! Have you ever listened to Ed Schultz? or Keith Olberman? or Joy Behar?
Unbelievable.
Remember a caller, "Bill from Kent, Ohio?"
Bill said that he was defending himself, a woman and a child when he used a baseball bat to break the jaw of a man who invaded Bill's house.
Paradoxically, Bill says that he--the homeowner--was found guilty.
I have searched news sources--in Kent and nearby Akron--but find nothing about this.
Will appreciate any additional, independent facts that are available (because, I suspect, there are other circumstances which were not disclosed).
Zimmerman's own story, through his attorney, clearly supports TRAYVON's right to use force in self defense. Zimmerman follows, gets out of vehicle, is armed with a concealed firearm. Trayvon approaches, asks if a problem. Zimmerman says no, and REACHES FOR HIS CELLPHONE. Even if you believe Zimmerman, at this point Travon has a reasonable belief that the man following him--and now reaching in his pocket--may be armed, and he has the right, under this stupid law, to take action to protect himself. This is the only rational analysis, and in typical fashion for the Diane Rehm Show and NPR, this point is never mentioned. Excuse my negative comments, but this is part of a pattern of an inability to think clearly which pervades our society. I've written this show and NPR in general several times to point out ignorant, thoughtless, agenda driven misinformation, but these types of blunders continue. Conservatives may not like it, but it's the only proper analysis. Imagine the same set of facts where a woman is stalked by an armed black youth, she asks him if he has a problem, he says no, and let's say she shoots him when he reaches in his pocket. Hard to think she wouldn't have a self-defense claim under this law. Trayvon was trying, through non-deadly force, to disarm the gun toting vigilante who was following him. Any other opinion is, unfortunately, the product of our society's undercurrent of racism. As usual, NPR's less than intelligent analysis only further confuses what should be--but for racist, ignorant agendas--a clearly understood issue with little need for debate.
It's almost unbelievable to hear this "gun rights" guy falling all over himself to give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt. He doesn't even want to entertain the idea that Zimmerman might have had a lapse in judgement.
I'll just come out and say what your other guest shied away from: No. There is no justifiable reason for a private individual to be carrying around a concealed handgun. Sorry. A gun isn't some kind of force-field. It doesn't prevent violence, and suggesting it does is downright (oxy)moronic.
I was FURIOUS when I heard John Velleco say on your show that he "represents the millions of gun owners in America" - pulled over and tried to call but could not get through. I am a gun owner and he most emphatically does NOT represent me, nor does the NRA. It's one thing to have a gun as an appropriate tool for a job - in my case, because I have a farm and all the attendant critters that kill chickens, upend beehives, root up gardens, and eat up crops - and a gun and a hunting hound are just tools of the trade. My husband and I were versed in gun safety from childhood and know (better than our stupid former vice president) better than to ever point one in the direction of a human being. Handguns, automatic weapons, concealed carry permits ... all these have no other purpose than to harm other people and should be BANNED. I used to work with crime victims and I can assure you that the majority of such weapons are not used in self defense but to frighten and threaten the defenseless, usually within the home. These jerks on the right wing who are puppets of the arms industry are NOT welcome to use my name in vain just because I own hunting guns. There are societies where every man on the street carries a weapon - Yemen for example - I invite them to move there and see how safe they feel. Having idiots like Zimmerman running around with handguns and an inflated sense of self-importance not only makes our communities less safe, but it complicates the already dangerous job of law enforcement professionals.
JMCB-NC wrote:" but it complicates the already dangerous job of law enforcement professionals"
Those bosses need all the help they can get.
Maybe you should take a minute to see what the second amendment is about, it ain't baggin a duck.
"It's almost unbelievable to hear this "gun rights" guy falling all over himself to give Zimmerman the benefit of the doubt."
Ummm ... Estelle, actually, it's our system of justice that gives him the benfit of the doubt. It's called "innocent until proven guilty in a court of law", not "until proven guilty in the court of public opinion".
"MKCOULIB wrote:
Stand your ground is in fact a racist law.
Tell me what is a likelywood of the black man of Zimmerman age to obtain a conceal weapon permit ?"
Oh Hell MKCOULIB: Lots of Blacks carry guns. Many are illegal. Bet you didn't know that.
Very disappointed with the quality of the "experts" who were completely oblivious to FBI data. While there is truth to the fear level created by Fox news, media outlets such as this show are quilty of the same.
Justifiable homicide numbers hover around 250 to 300 a year compared to homicide involving a handgun which ranges from 11,000 to 12,000 incidents per year. For people, the media, and anyone else who claim concealed weapon permits and stand your ground laws are a grave public safety concern, the numbers just don't add up. If you need a crusade here are a few suggestions.
Deaths from Heart Disease - 600,000
Deaths- Suicide - 36,000
Car Accidents - 46,000
The list goes on...
Why did NPR not expolore where stand your ground come from, conservative orgaization such as ALEC. I wish NPR would do more coverage on these legislative action groups like ALEC. Once I heard about this group and other groups, I did research to find out who is supporting these groups. No surprise they are funded by corporations one of which is my insurance provider. Needless to say I am shopping for a new insurance company.
These groups are undermining our democracy. Typically legislation in states is done at the request of the citizens of that state. No longer. The governors who are working with these groups are Daniels in Indiana, Kasich in Ohio, Walker in Wisconsin, Christie in New Jersey, Scott of Florida and probably Halie in South Carolina. Note all of these governors are darlings of the republican party. I find these groups to be anti democratic and anti citizen who support the interests of super citizens who have all the rights of a citizen and are now writing the rules of our country to maintain an entrenched ideology and wealth protection
mari wrote:
"Why aren't gun owners required to carry insurance as car owner do for accidents?"
--------------------------------------------------
Are you a paid spokesperson for the insurance lobby or the lawyer lobby? Of course there is firearm insurance that covers the owner investment from loss due to fire and theft.
Sprechers wrote:
"Why do certain people support the right to carry guns and shoot to kill when they deem it necessary but deny the right of women to have an abortion when the women deem it necessary?"
----------------------------------------------------
Why do people who support abortion on demand abhor the death penalty for convicted murderers?
Roe V Wade is law. Where are women being denied the right to abortions?
Oct21 wrote:
"In this day and age of the most stupid TV shows, everyone seems to think their experts on legal analysis. I suppose it's of little surprise that Diane Rehm herself has resorted to bimbo journalism with premature agenda driven shows like this one."
-------------------------------------------------
You must be referring to Tom Gjelten as he was the substitute host for DR.
BTW: Does the nearly 80 year-old DR meet all the requirements for the bimbo label. "a woman who is physically attractive but is perceived to have a low intelligence or poor education."
rsi wrote:
"While there is truth to the fear level created by Fox news"
Based on what? Your opinion? Do you have some stats or supporting evidence for that opinion?
Not too swift, I'm sure she had a major influence in the topic choice if not total control." bimbo journalism" sorry to confuse you with such big words, obviously it meant the mentality.
You must be frustrated you could not come up with any ideas for some more of those "good" gun bans you like so much!
Oct21 wrote:
"Not too swift, I'm sure she had a major influence in the topic choice if not total control." bimbo journalism" sorry to confuse you with such big words, obviously it meant the mentality."
-----------------------------------------
At this point in DR's radio career, she most assuredly has a passive role in show programming. What does journalism, "bimbo" or otherwise, have to do with the DR Show?
---------------------------------------
Oct21 wrote:
"You must be frustrated you could not come up with any ideas for some more of those "good" gun bans you like so much!'
---------------------------------------
Ron Paul disciples are known for clinging to false notions. You have as much chance of citing a federal firearm ban where civilians are prevented from owning full auto/select fire weapons if they meet NFA requirements as RP has of winning one state in the GOP primary.
It's interesting how well neo-cons fit in to the "conservative" movement. A blurring of lines, dishonest arguments, deep seated irrational hatreds. Every political movement in time seems to inevitably to develop a cancer that will bring it down. Freedom is always sacrificed for the illusion of security, this false conservatism is the cancer.
Oct21 wrote:
"It's interesting how well neo-cons fit in to the "conservative" movement. A blurring of lines, dishonest arguments, deep seated irrational hatreds. Every political movement in time seems to inevitably to develop a cancer that will bring it down. Freedom is always sacrificed for the illusion of security, this false conservatism is the cancer."
-------------------------------------
From this response we learn:
1) You cannot back up your claim about banned weapons.
2) Only liberals, Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul acolytes use the term "neocons."
3) Libertarian movement has melanoma.
your a waste of time, why bother with someone who makes stuff up and would never admit when their wrong and yes you are a big government neo-con progressive, i don't care who uses the term it has a valid and real meaning, the proof is in the size of our countries debt.
The fact that you will not acknowledge the harm caused by the Reagan's NFA ban is all i need to hear. Your lack of knowledge on NFA firearm price increases, talk of spectator increases translated to actual hobby growth. No understanding as to why the delay in price increases were caused by manufactures stock piling tubes and plates. The failure to know that the semis being made today could easily be made in full auto for even less money. Do you think an mg42 0r 34 C&R would be 25K if you could buy a newly made version costing $3500!
Oct21 wrote:
"The fact that you will not acknowledge the harm caused by the Reagan's NFA ban is all i need to hear. Your lack of knowledge on NFA firearm price increases, talk of spectator increases translated to actual hobby growth. No understanding as to why the delay in price increases were caused by manufactures stock piling tubes and plates. The failure to know that the semis being made today could easily be made in full auto for even less money. Do you think an mg42 0r 34 C&R would be 25K if you could buy a newly made version costing $3500!"
------------------------------------------
What is "spectator increases?"
All this Sturm Und Drang because you cannot afford to purchase NFA items. Do you actually own any NFA item? For your own edification, before 1986, the replica West Hurley TSMGs sold for $500 while Colt TSMGs sold for $5000+. Of course certain C&R NFA items continue to hold their high value whether or not there are reproductions on the market.
I can definitely understand your confusion. Hopefully I can help (somewhat). As the representative from the gun owner's group mentioned a couple of times, we don't know with certainty what happened AFTER Mr. Zimmerman had contacted 911 and been informed by the operator that law enforcement "didn't need" him to follow the suspicious individual in question. I took this to mean, we don't know who initiated the final confrontation that ultimately resulted in the shooting of Trayvon Martin. One hypothetical scenario that would support a claim of self-defense under Florida's Stand Your Ground law: George Zimmerman ceases following Trayvon Martin and begins walking back to his car. Trayvon runs at him from behind, punches him in the back of the head and knocking Zimmerman to the ground. Zimmerman rolls over and Martin climbs on top of him and begins chocking him or slamming his head back into the ground. Zimmerman pulls his weapon from his hip holster, aims it at Trayvon's chest, and pulls the trigger. Under this (or a similar fact pattern), the actual confrontation was initiated by Trayvon Martin and Zimmerman could argue his was in reasonable fear of serious injury or death at Martin's hands. The fact that Zimmerman had first followed Martin wouldn't be relevant legally as he had broke off the confrontation and Martin in turn had no reason to reengage or use force against Zimmerman.