Stand Your Ground and Concealed Weapons Laws
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-04-03/stand-your-ground-and-concealed-weapons-laws
Protests against the killing in Florida of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin continue in cities and on college campuses across the country. The case has focused attention on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law, which says a person may use deadly force in self-defense if under threat of harm, with no duty to retreat. Nearly half of states have some form of the law. Critics contend it's dangerous and promotes "shoot-first-ask-questions-later" mentalities. Supporters argue that every citizen should have a legal right to defend himself, or herself, in life-threatening situations. Guest host Tom Gjelten of NPR and a panel of experts will discuss whether Stand Your Ground laws and permitting people to carry concealed weapons have made Americans safer.
Guests
John Velleco
director of federal affairs at Gun Owners of America.
Elizabeth Megale
assistant professor of law, Barry University Law School.
Dan Gross
president, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence.
John Donohue III
economist, lawyer and professor at Stanford Law School.
Comments
Please familiarize yourself with our Code of Conduct and Terms of Use before posting your comments.
Lower crime rates? Do we know for certain the statistics are accurate? That the statistics-gathering persons weren't already overwhelmed with "mult-tasking"?
Even if the lower crime rate statistics are accurate, just wait and see what happens if the standard of living continues to fall in this country; not to mention in the rest of the world.
billtmore... no of course there are other factors. However, If you are a criminal in Vermont you do take a risk when you attemt a crime against a person.
Stand your ground is in fact a racist law.
Tell me what is a likelywood of the black man of Zimmerman age to obtain a conceal weapon permit ?
To me the most important point being missed is that Zimmerman was a vigilante trying to stop what apears to be neighborhood theft. It's not like he witnessed this man doing something life threatening in this neighborhood.
Ms. Megele stated that crime rates are not affected by CC laws. Isn't it true that crime rate in Texas dropped immediately upon passage of unlicensed "carry concealed" due to criminals' being unable to count on accosting an unarmed victim?
Oh please,crime is down? LOL. There have been so many layoffs, police no longer dispatch officers to make crime reports in my home town.Hear no evil,see no evil.
Is there any data (nationwide) that tracks how many cases of stand your ground is used by whites? blacks? other races?
Does race matter in stand your ground laws?
Neighbourhood "Watch" -- that's what they're supposed to do. Watch. Not run around like tin pan cops with guns drawn.
I had hoped to finally hear a neutral story on this issue on NPR but once again, a biased broadcast has been presented. THREE anti-gun panelists against one pro-gun panelist? Please wait until ALL of the facts have been presented by the Special Prosecutor.
Too many are painting "Stand Your Ground" as a "shoot first, ask questions later" law and they are wrong!. It is about self-defence, regardless of skin color! If I want to face my attacker, that is MY choice and if you want to flee from your attacker, that is YOUR choice.
And don't discount the deterence value the law may have in preventing crime. Think about it--If you are a criminal would you want to face a potentially armed civilian who may shoot you if you attack he or she? Is your life worth it?
At what point does the Stand your Ground law protect Trayvon Martin? He had reason to fear for his own safety from an armed man who was clearly following him. Where is his defense? Is stand your ground the survival of the fittest? If someone wants to intimidate someone they can get them afraid enough to defend themselves and then kill them for doing so.
Get Traing and a safe bfore you get a firearm!
Why has there been no discussion of Travon Martin's right to protect himself? Does the Florida law only allow use of deadly force to protect one's self? He was being followed at night, by a person with a weapon. Given that Mr. Zimmerman had been told by the police dispatcher to stand down, it would seemingly appear his pusuit of Mr. Martin was at the least zealous. Given those factors Martin might reasonably decide that, given an inability to shake Zimmerman, standing his own ground was his best option.
While Stand Your Ground laws may have some value, which I am still thinking about, at least there should be some requirement to a full investigation for each incident that occurs under such cover. Even the professionals, our police, are required to go on suspension and endure a thorough review. Why shouldn't an untrained citizen have the same requirement
After 10 years of educational administration in 4 of Florida's prisons, and listening to numerous inmates regarding their motivations to "change", the possibility that a potential "victim" might be armed was a common assertion. In reality, most crimes of violence are crimes of opportunty and the possibility that the victim could defend themselves with a firearm curtailed the attacks.
While the gentleman from the Brady Campaign accuses the "gun lobby" of spreading fear, I only heard him try to scare the general public just now with repetitive statements such as "a loaded, concealed, gun in public." Does he think people should carry unloaded guns? Or that open carry should be the norm? Of course not, he is simply throwing out as many fear triggers as possible.
In regard to the Trayvon case, I do not see how chasing a person down and willfully putting oneself into a confrontation has anything to do with "standing your ground." If anything, Trayvon had a right to defend himself against an unknown armed assailant. Zimmerman should be arrested and tried, stand your ground law or not.
---If anything, Trayvon had a right to defend himself against an unknown armed assailant.---
Where is the NRA on this tangent? The gun lobby is usually pretty good at getting the press to echo their meme about "unarmed person X who could've defended himself if he had a gun".
I do think that the ability to carry a concealed weapon is a right and it can make you safer. I also think that stand your ground laws are reasonable as it is not always practical or prudent to run or back off. I like the idea of national reciprocity of concealed carry permits. I really hope that law passes.
On the other hand, a firearm is a serious deadly weapon. It is a grave responsibility to carry a weapon. One should endeavor to maintain a high degree of skill and understand the law. If you can’t be bothered with the training you should not carry.
Restraint and concern for others should be a high priority. I believe this is true for the vast majority of gun owners.
I am a former LEO and as far as the Zimmerman/ Trayvon case is concerned – I fail to see why Mr. Zimmerman pursued the boy – he clearly should have stayed away and observed. It is not illegal to walk down the street.
However, the media has proven itself untrustworthy and we will just have to wait for the facts to come out. I feel bad for Trayvon and his family. It was an unnecessary tragedy.
I worked Brooklyn in the 1970's & 1980's. You could buy a gun in the bodaga for 200 bucks. A single mother could not legally own a gun to protect herself but predators who did not care about the law could easily obtain one. I have personally seen the victims of many sorted crimes in NYC. Its a complex story but in the end the average citizen is not trusted to own a gun but the criminals all have them. Unfair.
The premise of this show is completely false:
"Protests against the killing in Florida of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin continue in cities and on college campuses across the country. The case has focused attention on Florida's "Stand Your Ground" law."
As I have posted here before:
There are two scenarios in this case. The first is that Zimmerman chased after Trayvon and shot him. Was that "stand your ground"? The other scenario has Martin ON TOP of Zimmerman beating his head into the pavment. Perhaps one would consider THAT "stand your ground"?! The fact is, self defense (the second scenario) and stand your ground have NOTHING to do with each other and the implication that the "stand your ground" law is at play here is a red herring of the left. This errant theme is now exacerbated by DR Show and turned into a whole hour?!
Trayvon Martin is a convenient tool for those with a political/anarchist/race-bating agenda created because a "white hispanic" (whatever that is) killed a black teenager. I've said that as well here from the beginning. Juan Williams picks up this point: “Nobody says a word that over half of the murders in the United States are of black people and 90% of them are committed by other black people. What is this carnage in the black community, in Chicago, Philadelphia, Detroit, every day of the week? And nobody has a march for them"
If I were walking alone at night, and a car started following me, and that car stopped and the driver started following me, I would certainly feel threatened. It seems that the "stand your ground" law would allow me to use deadly force, if I chose, and not the person following me. What's to say that I'm not a possible victim of an attack? And although I'd probably try to run away, if I were a young black male and I did that, it might invite a shot in the back.
American Spring- If we had a wide spread violent reaction to a single event because of restless conditions in general, wouldn't aggressive police action etc look a lot like the Syrian government's attempts to put down the revolt there? How close are we to that point? We don't really know but it seems distressingly close. If progress and decency seems reserved for the few and laws allow people to pursue and shoot others at will claiming self defense, the American Spring may be coming very soon. The Florida law looks all too much like no real law at all. I don't feel safe!
It was about 11 pm on Nov 1st 2006 I was sleeping, and for some reason opened my eyes. I saw someone standing 5 ft from my bedside and HE was naked. I pretended to roll over in my sleep and reached under the pillow for my 9mm. Time slows down and your brain speeds up when things like this happen. I pulled the gun from the holster retracted and released the slide. I was now armed and flying out of bed. My mind had gone from fear to anger. With a 2 handed stance I yelled 'what the f$%& are you doing in my house bedroom and naked?? You are done Mr!!!'! I backed him down the hall across the living room into the back yard. I dialed 911. He was given 6 yrs. No charge of attempted rape or attempted sexual assault because he didn't touch me. Dang right he did't... my gun my house nobody died. If he would have made any move towards me I would have emptied the clip. I'm actually glad he was in my house and not my neighbors I am surrouded by older ladies that hate guns I their homes. He picked the wrong chick to mess with!!! I have a CCW now.
It was about 11 pm on Nov 1st 2006 I was sleeping, and for some reason opened my eyes. I saw someone standing 5 ft from my bedside and HE was naked. I pretended to roll over in my sleep and reached under the pillow for my 9mm. Time slows down and your brain speeds up when things like this happen. I pulled the gun from the holster retracted and released the slide. I was now armed and flying out of bed. My mind had gone from fear to anger. With a 2 handed stance I yelled 'what the f$%& are you doing in my house bedroom and naked?? You are done Mr!!!'! I backed him down the hall across the living room into the back yard. I dialed 911. He was given 6 yrs. No charge of attempted rape or attempted sexual assault because he didn't touch me. Dang right he did't... my gun my house nobody died. If he would have made any move towards me I would have emptied the clip. I'm actually glad he was in my house and not my neighbors I am surrouded by older ladies that hate guns I their homes. He picked the wrong chick to mess with!!! I have a CCW now.
The guy that broke into my house was white. I didn't think race I was thinking gender. What if this were females? Or if the shooter was female? Interesting to think about???
The problem with the stand-your-ground law is that it seems to have no provision for equal force, so we find it being invoked in cases where unarmed individuals have been killed while apparently attacking the armed. This ought to raise suspicion, at least. Certainly an unarmed assailant can do a great deal of harm with their hands and feet alone, and I think many or most people would agree that the law should not require one under such an attack to flee, but sometimes it is wise to do so, and under certain circumstances it should be illegal no to do so. The Zimmerman situation is a case in point. One inside his car is under very little threat from an unarmed pedestrian. A police officer, exiting his car to accost this pedestrian would bring with him a uniform and the authority it signifies, a firearm and probably one or two other less deadly weapons, and the training and official sanction to use them. We all know these things are intimidating, and they ought to be, for our own good. We actually count on our law enforcement agencies to show themselves visibly; otherwise, we would live in fear of police ambushes. Zimmerman put himself and Martin in danger by acting recklessly and far outside the bounds of his experience and authority: he should be charged accordingly.
The NRA gun lobby is so powerful they deny the rights of citizens to track gun violations. They thwart efforts to create a data base of Concealed Carry violations,using the lack of data as proof of more guns,means more safety. Fortunately,the body count is there for anyone to see,if you`ve not been blinded by all the NRA lies.
I served on a violent crimes county grand jury for eighteen weeks which renewed my faith in our justice system. I found all of the cases presented to us were carefully investigated by the police, detectives, and prosecutors. When one of the attorneys bought up the fact, that the stand your ground law, circumvented the grand jury process, it was alarming. Why are we circumventing our judicial process?
I would like to see a research study conducted to see the media habits of people who agree and disagree with the 'stand your grounds and/or concealed weapons' laws. Also, I would like to know if Mr. Zimmerman's media habits and if he had a heightened sense of fear based upon what he hears on the radio, television, and print media. It would help us better understand his and others state of mind about their personal safety.
I've observed a heightened and exaggerated sense of danger among friend, family, and coworkers who listen to right-wing radio and FOX news. As someone who luckily lives in one of the safest small cities in the USA, I was saddened to learn of an elderly relative's fear of leaving her home based upon her daily diet of FOX news and Rush L. When I told her that our community had one of the lowest crime rates in the USA, she was amazed. Really? I had to show her proof before she stopped worrying about someone breaking into her home or killing me on my drive home.
I'm frightened more about the exaggerated sense of fear among my fellow citizens; gun companies lobbyists capitalizing and creating this fears to sell more guns and to push through 'stand your ground' laws; and how this
could lead to death of innocent victims.
fullfathomfive wrote:
"The problem with the stand-your-ground law "
The problem with the stand-your-ground law is that it is NOT APPLICABLE in this case. Please see my earlier post.
"Zimmerman put himself and Martin in danger by acting recklessly "
I think you meant "I BELIEVE Zimmerman ALLEGEDLY put himself and Martin in danger by ALLEGEDLY acting recklessly " ... unless you were there and have some eye-witness report to convey.
The pre-judgment in this case of ZImmerman, Martin and either of their actions is the real travesty. You people must be awfully smart to divine actions, intent, and punishment with absolutely ZERO facts!
Patsy Nomore wrote:
"The NRA gun lobby is so powerful they deny the rights of citizens to track gun violations. They thwart efforts to create a data base of Concealed Carry violations,using the lack of data as proof of more guns,means more safety. Fortunately,the body count is there for anyone to see,if you`ve not been blinded by all the NRA lies."
Have any evidence for that, Patsy? A link? A source? A anything? Or did you just pull this out of your ... imagination? By the way, "sources" such as Daily Kos and Mother Jones do not count.