John Horgan: "The End of War"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-02-02/john-horgan-end-war
A science journalist debunks the idea that war is a fact of human nature. He describes why people are equally disposed to peace as violence.
Guests
John Horgan
a science journalist; director of the Center for Science Writings at Stevens Institute of Technology and author of "The End of Science," "The Undiscovered Mind" and "Rational Mysticism."
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Program Highlights
John Horgan is a longtime scientific American writer. He also teaches a course called "War and Human Nature" at the Center for Science Writings at Stevens Institute of Technology. He's just published a book intended to challenge assumptions about the inevitability of war.
A "Visceral Response" To War
Horgan grew up in the Cold War era and was eligible to be drafted during the Vietnam War, but he received a high number. But by the time he received his number, he had already decided he wasn't going to fight. "I've always had this kind of visceral, emotional response to war as something that was not only wrong morally, but also just really stupid, this really primitive behavior, this kind of relic of our past that we must find a way to get past," Horgan said. He believes that war is a problem man created, but that some scientists thing it really only started emerging about 12,000 years ago. Others argue that there's evidence of war from millions of years ago. Horgan is most concerned with why we fight now, and how we can stop.
The Origins Of War
Horgan argues that if war was really "biological" in the same sense that language is biological, it would be must more consistent in the historical record. But according to Horgan, war is actually very sporadic. There are some societies that become very materialistic, and stop fighting. There are others with long histories of fighting who then become more pacifistic. Horgan is most bothered by what he has observed as a sort of fatalistic point of view that war is inevitable. He believes that humans have much more power than some believe to plot the course of events
and resolve conflicts without violence.
Why Do We Fight?
A popular theory about reasons for fighting comes down to resource competition. But Horgan said that while some wars are fought over land or resources, there are many in which there is no clear motivation for the conflict. He also believes that the horror of the two World Wars have changed how many think about war - whereas leaders prior to WWI sometimes glorified war, our politicians don't generally present war to the public in those terms any longer.
What If Women Were In Charge?
Diane wondered if things would be any different if women were in charge. Horgan said that the idea that women are pacifists doesn't hold up any more than the idea that men are natural warriors. "We need to end war for the sake of ending war," he said. "The culture of war perpetuates war."
You can read the full transcript here.
Comments
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If people"are equally disposed" towards peace or violence, perhaps this explains why AT LEAST half of all us Exceptional Americans seem willing to enter War at the drop of a hat.
Didn't this "War at drop of a hat" syndrome directly contribute to overall downfall of previous empires? (see Rome, see England,... and on and on)
Demonization is a political tactic. It will never end. Milosevic, Hitler, Mussolini, Khaddafi, Ikmadinijad , Cheney, and Newt all know this. They will wage war if they can make a profit from it, and get someone else to pay. Imagine how Newts comments are playing in the Middle East. He is going to get some young people killed, both of our nation and the others. He is a real 'world-class missleader', a 'Great Historian' of the Tactics of Manipulation for Profit to his own "Friends and Family.' He doesn't know when to stop, does he McCain? And now he has the Cardinals and the National Catholic Cathedral in his pocket, too. What did you expect from such a reptile? Only repeating what I heard in D.C. back in the day. You can't call them out to speak what they know. But many people have a bad taste in their mouth from their dealings of the 'historian of lobbying and it's successful tactics.' Karl Rove and Son, anybody?
re your upcoming program on the warrior?
My country has been at war since I was born (1941). We nakes here - and around the world- are definitely wired for violence- if we weren't already from centuries of sneaking up on animals in the forest.
Having served prison time for a nonviolent protest (of Vietnam) I think about our male programming and the violence/nonviolence crossroads a lot.
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1) Thoreau on John Brown:
“ I do not wish to kill or be killed.
But I can foresee circumstances
in which both these things would be by me unavoidable.
It was John Brown's particular doctrine that
a man has a perfect right to interfere by force with the slave holder,
in order to rescue the slave. I agree with him.
I shall not be forward to think him mistaken in his method
who quickest succeeds to liberate the slave."
Despite our programming- I believe even we men have a "fellow feeling" component that abhors killing another.
While strict non-violence may be next to impossible, it is the first thing to try (and seldom is-in any society). I see it as difficult but beautiful- like ballet.
david eberhardt
baltimore, md
410-235-7507
"But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
~Hermann Goering
Things haven't changed much....
"Naturally the common people don't want war: Neither in Russia, nor in England, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, IT IS THE LEADERS of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is TELL THEM THEY ARE BEING ATTACKED, and denounce the peacemakers for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. IT WORKS THE SAME IN ANY COUNTRY."
--Goering at the Nuremberg Trials
In general, the average person has little interest in war, it is the psychopathic leaders that want it.
Some of us see a connection between the ability to have ownership of one's body in reproductive decisions and the ability to choose peace in time of conflict. The deniers of the exercise of free will and personal conscience are quick to point to authoritarian regimes trying to limit population growth but slow to acknowledge forced pregnancy by denial of reproductive health services. They are quick to assert the state's right to deploy peacekeepers in aggression, and the states right to conscript personnel; but slow to admit we all have a sweet disposition to nonviolence somewhere within us, and an inalienable right to exercise it. Our state and some of our churches are hypocritical and contradictory, for they often celebrate the capacity of individual free will while rigging life to make free will impossible. The contemporary world is confinement and diminished choice without any possibility of solitary self-sufficiency, and no access to income without opportunity being extended through large networks and institutions. When the authoritarianism of church and state are combined to compel us to fight or reproduce in their interests while mocking us with the illusion of free will; this is a blatant negation of individual freedom and choice, the very essence of personhood. What are we then but the chattel or livestock herded to meet the needs of masters? I will resist in every way possible when the religious beliefs of others or the violent needs of others are imposed on me; or when I am deprived of opportunity because I choose peace over war or personal needs over pregnancy.
Birth control -- Give those who object to coverage the opportunity to choose a plan without birth control coverage, but at a higher price.
It's the same as cable TV. Many don't want to pay for black or hispanic stations. They can pay more for a special service that doesn't take advantage of the package rate.
All wars I know get started to cover domestic failures of politicians. Whipping into patriotic frenzy ignorant masses serves politicians well. At least in short term.
I think Bush would be one term president if he did not start wars.
Education on how to differentiate between propaganda and reality would help.
So, Mr. Hogan, do you support Ron Paul since he is the most anti-war? He voted against the Iraq war. So did Obama, but as president, Obama went into Libya without congressional approval.
From Jeff in Vienna:
I remember listening to a fascinating speech given by the French ambassador to the US at some function in DC, in which he explained that one of the principle reasons for the creation of the European Union was "to make war impossible in Europe." He said that the history of Europe had always been one of war and suffering, culminating in the world wars and genocides of the 20th century. So one of the duties of the European Union is to monitor every aspect of the the member's economies that would affect war - you can't run a factory or business in the EU that would be involved with manufacture of raw materials used in the production of weapons without EU oversight.
I believe the call to non-violence is an evolutionary process for human beings. As a Quaker, I know that that war is not the answer. This is based on my spiritual experience that has taken the anger from my heart. If you look at many European countries who engaged in wars for hundreds of years, they now enjoy at peace. I believe that some people have to become so sick of war that they will work hard to treat the causes of war - greed, poverty, fear, hunger, etc. The Friends Committee on National Legislation is a lobbying group that works hard to promote the cause of peace. . . Eventually, I believe that war will become obsolete.
Why do people engage in war, thats easy, your fighting over the water hole, your fighting for the best spot of the water hole. Your fighting over the best resources. Especially the male, if I have the best resources then I have the best female.
To eradicate war, then the situation of war has to be eliminated or reduced to the point of improbability.
The real pessimism about it, is the history of the religious orders of the world. In america you would tend to believe that the destruction of someones son or daughter and the anguish of the parents, would have every christian sect in america in an uproar, espeially since they are pro life, I guess the adult lives dont have same weight of value. Then the religion of islam, and even the religious leader of Iran does not hold care about the sanctity of life and creation before god in any expressive or substantial way, to me, its the same rediculuous thinking about their religion and what is good morality. You would think that given the stakes and hurtfullness to god and our mothers in fathers in heaven there would absolute cooperation between the religious orders to end what is an abomination before our mothers and fathers. they intended for their son or daughter to live out their complete lives and die in the natural. A man of certainty
John before the invasion of Iraq I went to numerous VFW's and Moose lodges and talked with around 20 WWII and Korean war vets about what they thought about the potential invasion of Iraq. Many of them would shed tears thinking about young men being sent to war especially for questionable reasons. One fella I asked about what he thought about young men being sent into Iraq was coming out of the VFW in Chauncey Ohio his name was Virgil Kittle. He had osh kosh overalls on with a ball camp with all of his war pins on it. When I asked his permission to ask him a few questions he fell back in his car and started softly sobbing. He said "its just not right, it's just not right for our leaders to send these young men off to Iraq unless they are aboslutely sure that Iraq is a real threat"
I can't tell you how looking into the eyes of these older Vets and seeing the pain in their eyes, the tears, the sad sad memories has shaken me to my corp. I now go into the VA in Dayton Ohio to volunteer with young Iraqi and Afghani Vets some of them missing limbs, many of them on anti depressants. That look that I have seen in WWII, Korean and Vietnam eyes is in the eyes of these younger Vets. A deep sadness that is difficult to soothe.
Re: "The End of War"
While there are infinite arguments regarding this subject, may I propose what I believe are the top 3 causes or reasons for war;
1. Political and Personal Gain
2. Money. Unfortunately we live in a world where the activity of war is monetarily beneficial to corporations and individuals.
3. Lack of Communication. I really do believe that communication is the universal solvent. In any argument or disagreement the act of sitting down and communicating with each other can always bring about solutions. I believe this cause - Lack of Communication - is the single most important aspect we must confront. The lack of it leads to isolationism and the dehumanization of other peoples and cultures. It alone can handle the other two I've listed.
- Thank you
Linda K
Diane you just asked whether people'a attitudes towards war will change due to being aware of the Veterans from Iraq and Afghanistan. How can that possibly happen when what was going on in both of those countries was barely whispered about on our TV screens in the MSM. That even now as soldiers have returned from Iraq you seldom if ever see or hear any of them on MSNBC, CNN, Fox being interviewed. Right now it is constant coverage of the Republican debates and race. Nothing about our Vets.
If anything the media, the military have gotten even better at isolating the American public from the reality for American soldiers or what has really taken place in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Let's be real here .. The majority of Americans bascially do not seem to care about the consequences of these wars. Lets be real
I don't know. All I know is I grew up in a violent school and had to deal with violent kids there and in my neighborhood. I am an honorably discharged veteran of the US Army too but I am an old man now. I can't fight any more but I sure would appreciate some younger men to help keep greedy people from taking advantage of me. I can't explain why people are the way they are. I am not that smart. I just want to live as long as I can and not get my life cut short by others who would love to take advantage of me.
John Keegan in "the history of warfare" mostly agrees with Mr. Horgan that the occurances of war are delcining but at the end of this tome Keegan clearly states that societies, i.e., countries, benefit most when there are rules of commerce between them that are enforced by standing armies.
there's a strong inference in this idea that there will always be people or groups of people who attempt gain by circumventing those rules and, therefore, we are destine, as humanity, to endure conflict.
also, I firmly believe, there is no freedom without bloodshed and I would like Mr. Hogan's opinion on where we would be without the American Revolution or our black population would be had not hundreds of thousands of men lost their lives in the Civil War.
John how different do you think people look at war when it has been determined by mostly men who have been in previous wars make the decisions to go into or create other wars rather than say Cheney and others who have avoided service themselves send people off to war?
"also, I firmly believe, there is no freedom without bloodshed and I would like Mr. Hogan's opinion on where we would be without the American Revolution or our black population would be had not hundreds of thousands of men lost their lives in the Civil War."
We would look like Canada and slavery would be abolished in 1833, without bloodshed (thirty years before Emancipation Proclamation).
Horgan argues that humans are not wired to go to war because we are not inherently violent. I believe we are wired for war, but not because we are particularly aggressive. We go to war because we form communities, and when you are in a community, you are not in another community. Then, when community interests clash and tempers rise more and more, war (or violent conflict) is always a possible result.
I agree that there is hope. We have not had very much violent conflict in the United States for quite some time, and that's because we have other ways of resolving conflicts. Most people are not particularly oppressed, and do not feel that violence is the only effective option for improving their lives.
However, I do think we're a long way from ending war. There are so many places where people are terribly oppressed, where they don't have many alternatives, and where people don't have the tools to imagine other ways of living. It could happen, but it will take a lot of work.
I love this conversation! I have offered wondered how impactful it would be if during the half time of sporting events doves were released as a symbol of the power of peace as opposed to the fly over of bomber jets.
Maybe peace could be as valued as war technology and heros could be made of those who stand for peace.
When we strip away the many complex layers of human culture, what we are left with at the core is life's prime directive: to replicate one's genes (and by extension, one's memes).
This is observable on a micro level (men fighting over a woman in a bar room) and on a macro level (entire nations fighting to "defend their way of life, which includes having women and children).
In the absence of plenty, we fight to gain territory and resources on which to mate, reproduce and raise our young.
In the presence of plenty, we act out our innate wiring for aggressiveness (needed to acquire what we need to replicate in a competivite species) by playing aggressive sports. In the case of such peoples as the Yanomami (syn. Yanomamo) having wars for "sport," this is also a way to release tension of such hardwired instincts.
This doesn't mean we want to kill; we only want what we perceive we need to replicate our genes and memes.
P.S. I did some graduate studies in primate evolutionary ecology @ Harvard, many years ago!
We need wars. What munitions and cruse missile manufacturers would do?
I think this is where we are still most competitive in manufacturing.
I believe we had occasion of using old versions of cruise missiles in Libya, now they are all upgraded (for time being).
I have been listening to this program and I despair of you.
I have heard an awful lot of rubbish on your shows, but here, you show yourself as being TOTALLY out of touch with society.
Of course war can be stopped, but it is in the interests of the money grabbers of this country and elsewhere to keep them going.
In addition, how can you say that there has been worse injury to our soldiers in these present wars than in others. I wish you could tell that to those that suffered in WWI and WWII and the Korea War and the Viet Nam War etc etc. I am sure that the Crimean War also had its mutilated and dead.
For someone that holds such an important position in communications, I wonder how you keep your job. Obviously NPR is populated with people like yourself.
Is it any wonder that 95% of listeners do not subscribe.
Smarten up and open your eyes PLEASE. You worry so much about 'decent talk' on your show .......... why not worry about its content too.
From a disappointed listener.
I hope Diane and John mention Stephen Pinker's new book: The Better Angels of Our Nature. He argues that we are moving toward a more peaceful world.
Also, I refer to Karen Armstrong's and the Dalai Lama's fairly recent books on compassion.
several points come to mind:
- Boys by nature are more "querluous" (sp) -- ask any mom who's raised both girls + boys
- Didn't Jimmy Carter have a "Peace Institute" does it still exist?
- John, you mentioned a world police force (shudder) - elaborate on that
- Jane Goodall says some chimps she studied were violent, others weren't
- wouldn't making sure a war is declared constitutionally help curb unnecessary wars since as you say people in general don't want war these days?
Doves would go down well at the Half-Time show at the Super Bowl!!!
I am sure someone would bring out a gun and shoot them. And I suspect that the crowd would cheer.
I have to admit that I admire you for daring to suggest this 'entertainment.'
kathleen: If your account of your activities is accurate you are a saint.
I've been around some injured vets too and found there is little I can do except to care and to be there. Maybe it's just me, but fresh vets don't seem to want to talk to civilians about their suffering. Maybe I am not worthy of their insights.
To curb wars. we should pass a law stating that they can only be financed from special sales tax. This tax should show on sales receipts.
The fact that we have professional, volunteer army may be responsible too. We threat them as disposable legions.
A couple of years ago I worked with a group of young children who were challenged to use stop motion animation to create a "history" of a topic. Every child was able to contribute an idea and one would be chosen. The topic chosen was the history of war. Once chosen 4 hours of discussion followed to identify how to create a story board that would illustrate why war happens? what war accomplishes? why does war continue? This is what they created. I think it sums it up. See if you can see it's deepness and truth.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2a-iMQ3_S0