Exotic Animal Industry in the U.S.
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2012-02-01/exotic-animal-industry-us
The right to own pythons, tigers, chimps and other exotic pets depends on where in the US you live. The legal US wildlife industry doesn’t get much national attention unless someone is hurt, an exotic pet gets loose or an ecosystem is damaged. A new report links Burmese pythons released in the Florida Everglades to the severe declines of in the region's mammals. In Ohio police shot and killed dozens of exotic animals including wolves, lions, and bears reportedly set free by their distraught owner. As some fight for more regulation, breeders, brokers and owners of exotic pets say they are being unfairly targeted. Guest host Susan Page and a panel discuss battles over the legal wildlife trade.
Guests
Wayne Pacelle
President and C.E.O. of the Humane Society of the United States
Andrew Wyatt
president of the United States Association of Reptile Keepers
Zuzana Kukol
president and co-founder of Responsible Exotic Animal Ownership (REXANO)
Tim Harrison
director of Outreach for Animals, and advocate group for proper behavior around wildlife
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Program Highlights
Last fall, Ohio Police killed 49 exotic animals set free by their distraught owner. A recent report says Burmese pythons released into the Florida Everglades are causing severe declines in the regions mammals. This type of reports has brought scrutiny to the exotic pets industry. Guest host Susan page and our guests take a look at different arguments concerned with balancing personal rights, public safety, and environmental health.
Differences Between Exotic Animals And Other Pets
The Humane Society's Wayne Pacelle noted that the most common domesticated pets, like dogs and cats, belong in our homes, enjoy our companionship, and are capable of being trained. Tigers, large predatory animals, constricting snakes, and other exotic pets don't, he said. "There are no good outcomes for these animals," he said. "They almost always end up injured or dead or relinquished."
Exotic Pet Owners Speak
Zuzana Kukol of Responsible Exotic Animal Ownership has owned exotic cats and thinks ownership of such animals should be regulated no differently than that of domestic pets. Andrew Wyatt, of the U.S. Association of Reptile Keepers, has also owned snakes and pointed out that not all reptiles are "exotic." Wyatt admits that Burmese pythons and other invasive species are a big problem in the Florida Everglades, but he believes the problem is fairly limited.
Effect Of Animals On Environment "Devastating"
Pacelle disagrees with Wyatt and argues that advocates like Kukol and Wyatt "want to protect the right of private citizens to have dangerous predatory animals in their homes, even if they're causing ecological havoc, even if they're causing public safety threats, and even if the animals themselves are enormous victims of this trade," Pacelle said. Kuzol said that the number of people killed in the U.S. by exotic animals - about 3 per year - is much less than that of people killed by dogs, horses, and many other domesticated animals.
Wildlife Advocates Weigh In
A caller named Chet from Georgia, who is the executive director at the Georgia Wildlife Rescue Association, said that he has heard reports of what sounds like either an anaconda or a python in his state. He said that the snakes do seem to be moving further north and he has a sense that the problem might not be as well-contained as Wyatt believes. Chet has owned exotic snakes himself, but he does have reservations about anyone being able to enter a pet shop and purchase a snake that will eventually grow up to be enormous and potentially difficult to feed, handle, and care for.
You can read the full transcript here.
Related Video
Zuzana Kukol, of Rexano:
Comments
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I think it's dangerous to generalize that the outcome of cruelty and death is as common as you portray. Our ever expanding knowledge and concern for animals kept in captivity has progress exponentially. Professional keepers are more the norm than the exception. I believe education, not banning animals, is the answer. Be careful not to give up your rights for a false sence of security or you may lose both, The danger of exotics in captivity is an easily exagerated danger that will lead to over regulation by the sheer momentum of fiction peddeling mega lobbiests like the HSUS.
Does anyone seriously believe that Burmese pythons ate 90% of the mammals in the everglades? That beggars logic. Given the digestive rates of the snakes, if they ate 90% of the mammals, you would be able walk across the everglades on the backs of Burmese pythons. It is very likely that the two cold winters killed off the mammals, along with the pythons. I acknowledge the serious problem of invasive species, but bad science always undermines a case.
As for SNAKES, when one is hungry that SNAKE is just as excited about eating the owner of 5 years as it is by 'despicable me' when I stumble upon that snake once it's set free and back in the wild by the ignorant owner..
*
SNAKES are the 'Michael Myers' of the Animal Kingdom.
The problem isn't necessarily in the ownership of these exotic pets. The real issue occurs when the animals escape or are released by their owners into non-native habitats in which they can wreak havoc. This is even more important when you look at the effect on already fragile environments. Invasive species have had quite the effect on Hawaii http://www.uhaul.com/supergraphics/states/hawaii/spider/index2.html
I take offense the term "Exotic Animals" this term like game, dimishes the fact that these are wild animals that belong in the WILD! Not in someones house, apartment or backyard. These pro personal rights people have no regard for these animals whatsoever.
I truly appreciated the spokes person for the Humane Society of the United States. He did a fabulous job defending the protection of wild animals. Where are the politicians on this matter? I send emails to my Congressman, Senators on Animal Issues all the time with nothing but an electronic generated splash email. This is the problem, most of the politicians in this matter have been bought by special interest groups.
lauraleebb
Cape Cod, MA
No one should have the right to take a wild animal out of the wild and make it a 'pet'. It is not a pet and it does not belong in a cage. Importation of wild animals must be stopped. They only way this will happen is by public pressure on politicians. While 'public safety' and 'invasive species' issues get alot of atttention the heart of the issue is the welfare of these animals. if you agree then get involved...you can't change things from the sidelines.
Caro Perry, snakes live longer in captivity and many birds and fish do great as well.
I'm not against zoos, but apparently you are since they "are being caged just for the entertainment of the human."
And yes, my corn snakes are very dangerous, I'm always fearing for my life. Those Fennec Foxes, scary creatures! Did it ever occur to you that more people are killed every year by dogs than all exotics combined!
Invasives can be a problem, but I've never heard anyone use that argument that they will invade anyway. I've heard people say that by banning snakes across the country doesn't help the situation in FL, which is valid. How is banning my corn snake in MD helping FL??
I think really something should be done about the feral animals, such as unwanted cats that are now running lose killing off many of the native animals. But no one seems to care about that.
Are you against reasonable regulations that would allow people to keep their animals? I'm fine with having a license, I have one in MD to breed and sell native species, but don't take them away because of a couple idiots. I mean think about more people are killed by domestic animals, they do more harm to the environment, and there are more abuse/neglect cases with domestic animals. Every reason to ban exotics can be applied to domestic animals.
Many people who keep exotics don't keep them like you would keep a cat or a dog. If I kept my horses like I keep my cats and dogs they would suffer too. Animals have different requirements and most of the exotics are captive bred and born.
I support animal welfare and if someone can take care of an exotic just as good as a zoo (I'm assuming you're not against zoos), then why should they not be allowed to keep their animal?
I can also tell you that snakes thrive in captivity and most live longer than they would in the wild.
No, not really. Just find it amusing that someone defends the possibility of radically altering the ecological balance in the Everglades with the 80-90% claim. Recently introduced critters, with legs/wings and without, seem to be altering the balance of nature. They eat native bird eggs and mammals, not cupcakes.
Disclaimer: No species on Earth has altered the balance of nature more than Homo sapiens (Watch the scene in "The Matrix" where Agent Smith is interrogating Morpheus). As a species, we have nothing to crow about.
I couldn't believe the inaccuracies and false information Wayne Pacelle spewed on this show, and to have the nerve to ask for tax dollar? If H$U$ would pay the taxes they owe, maybe the Government could do more. They run under a 501C3 Tax Exempt status that severaly limits the amount of money that can be spent on lobbying, and it's no secret the majority of the money they spend goes directly to professional lobbyiests who work tirelessly to remove our rights to own, breed and consume animals. Mr Wyatt's figures are abolutely correct, less than 1/2 of 1 % of the money HSUS takes in goes to care for animals. To crawl up on the cross about the money they spend to clean up messes??? When they only show up to these raids ito turn them into fundraisers for their own pockets? "Michael Vick for example." As for Black Beauty Ranch, that's a true lesson in "Mismanagement!" But Wayne did look good in his black tie hob- knobbing with the Super Elite on the reality show "Selling New York." That's what Wayne is really all about, he doesn't have to get his facts right--God made him pretty, not smart!
Approaching this discussion in regards to an ecological reason for not keeping alternative pets
I must ask HSUS. In regards to the biomass which is destroyed by invasive species, why does HSUS not stand up for elimination of all feral cat and dog populations?
These two common pets
alone present a greater danger to the natural ecology populations then the 'scary burmese' issue in South Florida.
AnnS, the exotic community would love to collaborate (compromise is lose lose, collaborate is win win, Lacey Act was lose lose, HSUS and the reptile community are both upset about the results). But HSUS has refused to work with us. Bans don't work, regulations do.
When they banned alcohol it was a disaster, but now you have to be 21 and show a license. You also need a license to sell it. Sure people will break the law, but if you ban it people will still break the law, now you've just punished those that were responsible.
When exotic animals ownership advocates keep the wild animals they love imprisoned in their homes for years, they insist that we agree they are responsibly exercising their rights.
When lovers of young women imprison the objects of their obsessions inside their homes for years, society calls them aberrant predatory criminals.
Neither is much different from the other. Both should be prosecuted.
A feral domestic cat needs to eat over a half-dozen field mice a day to live. How many native Florida small mammals does a 12 foot Burmese Python need to eat each day? Do Python advocates really believe that the proliferation of 12 foot voracious predators and the concurrent near-elimination of suitable preferred-prey small mammals is an unrelated coincidence? Do Python advocates believe these predators are all being fed 'Purina Python Pellets' by other Python advocates? Really?
How would exotic animals importation advocates address the reported potential $10 billion dollar cost of attempting to limit the spread of Asian carp into the Great lakes? What damages have resulted from the importations of Kudzu, African bees or Capybara (Nutria)?
The root cause of this problem is importation and not just ownership, with all the peculiarly America individual rights and state's rights issues that word can evoke. Perhaps the importers of non-native species should be sued and forced to refund the costs of actions and programs made necessary to ameliorate the damages that result from their importations.
Burmese pythons are beautiful predatory animals in their native habitat. They are pitiable objects of the obsessions of predatory humans when held as 'pets'.
I have a friend who is a refugee from Burma and is horrified that Burmese pythons are loose in Florida. Perhaps we should pay attention to her knowledgeable reaction.
Exotic animals are not put on earth to fulfill human egotistical needs.
To "possess," "own" or "have" them to fulfill your ego’s need and create an identity around exotic pet ownership is abuse.
They are living creatures that deserve to be treated as such. If a bobcat were to come willingly and freely to your backyard each day then I say, great for you and you are very lucky to see such as beautiful animal each day HOWEVER taking this animal, caging it, and treating it as your property is disgusting to me. Thank you Wayne for your work on this issue. The REXANO organization’s "mission" makes me very sad.
To really truly love them is to let them be free in their natural habitat.
If you love animals as much as I do then please go visit them in their natural habitat, do not force them in your home.
I would really like this to get revisited, I feel like Wayne interrupted way to much! I was saddened by Andrew and Zuzana's defense. I do keep reptiles, and think that the python ban is stupid, My Burmese python is kept in a very nice enclosure, I maintain it daily. The fact that If i ever need to move to another state and I haft to leave my pet behind that i will now be a felon is stupid! I understand that there is a problem in Florida but that does not effect California or any of the other states. Why not issue a permit system that involves a annual fee to regulate "dangerous animals", that could create jobs to enforce people keeping there animals properly.
I agree 100%
It is offensive that we, as a society, feel that we have the right to take a wild animal out of it's habitat and try to domesticate it. Forget the fact that it is dangerous, and it IS. Forget the fact that it requires money to clean up the mess and care for these animals, and it DOES. It is wrong, and obviously so, on the most basic level. People who feel they have the "right" to do this because they have the money to do this don't seem to understand that their "rights" stop where the animals rights begin.
"Karen in Indiana wrote:
I've been around boas and pythons and, as a whole, pythons are much more aggressive. Especially when they're hungry or scared. And they get big. What will it take ,... children disappearing and being found later in python stomachs?
January 31, 2012 - 2:33 pm"
Children and Radio Tracking Dog Collars found in the stomachs of Alligators hasn't had any visible negative effect on Alligator restoration and protection policies.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
"We cannot glimpse the essential life of a caged animal,
only the shadow of its former beauty". Julia Field
I'd rather see a wild animal live in the wild and die early, than imprisoned his entire life, his every natural instinct thwarted and disrespected.
It is arrogance, selfishness and narcissism that informs people it's ok to keep wild animals, and risk harm to neighbors.
Thank you Mr. Pacelle for your dedication, compassion and tireless work on behalf of animals.
"SuperGraphic wrote:
The problem isn't necessarily in the ownership of these exotic pets. The real issue occurs when the animals escape or are released by their owners into non-native habitats in which they can wreak havoc. This is even more important when you look at the effect on already fragile environments. Invasive species have had quite the effect on Hawaii http://www.uhaul.com/supergraphics/states/hawaii/spider/index2.html
February 1, 2012 - 12:24 pm"
That was one of the dumber Sites I have visited, but if the Message was to warn Movers using Uhaul equipment about transporting alien species, then I have a related Tale to tell.
In 1973, I moved from Massachusetts to Virginia during the Southward advance of the Gypsy Moth.
After I finished unloading the UHaul Rental truck, I parked it behind the house until I could return it to the UHaul Dealer.
After about a week or so, a small (Poplar?) tree 4 feet from where I had parked the Truck, was suddenly swarming with Gypsy Moth Larvas, which I sprayed immediately. It seemed to have worked since I never saw any more of the Moths.
I remember, with horror, the hilarity that greeted the entry of a 20 Pound carnivorous Frog in the Calaveras County Jumping Frog Contest.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
Mary Phillpotts, any animal shouldn't be cooped up, is it fair to keep a house cat cooped up in a cage? Should you keep a horse in the conditions you described? Of course not, but certain animals such as mice, rats, rabbits, reptiles, fish and other kinds of animals do fine in cages. Certain animals, such as snakes will actually stop eating if they have to much open space, in the wild they find the smallest spaces possible to hide in almost all the time, many live most of their lives under things, so a big open cage will only stress them out.
I also highly doubt anyone is going to shoot a Fennec Fox or a Corn Snake if it gets out. How many cats and dogs escape? Has anyone ever neglected a cat or dog? Should we ban those or how about children since their is as you said "danger of neglect?"
I highly doubt my corn snake is a danger to anyone. Honestly there have been 8 people killed by non-venomous snakes in the US EVER, but there were 31 people killed last year by dogs. Horses are a danger if they get out as well, there was a horse that escaped recently in my area and ran onto a highway, I'll spare you the details, but any large animal can be dangerous, doesn't mean you should ban them.
I can't do anything about you not liking zoos, but if someone can provide the same care as a zoo, why should they have their animals taken away?
as a burmese python and other exotic snake owner i was appalled by the fact that andrew was interrupted every time by wayne yet when he attempted to do the same he was chastised. I disagreed with everything wayne said. He needs to learn some manners as well. Back to the snakes, i own several species of large constrictor and i think that florida's problem is simply that and it should not affect the rest of the Us. There is no science in the reports mentioned just media BS designed to hype up the public into doing what the HSUS wants them to do. They as well as the Obama administration dont care about what kind of effect this will have on small buiness owners.
Just so folks reading this know, The person posting here as Spatulus is none other than the infamous Sky Williamson, up to her old tricks of finger-pointing to hide and deny her own closet skeletons. She points out, and rightly so, that Barbara Hoffmann was ACCUSED, but conveniently forgets that all charges were dropped in a conspiracy to take her animals under color of law and nothing more. The way the ARs have gotten the laws so garbled today, You can be accused of hoarding if you have one animal more than your neighbor, and cruelty if there happens to be one pile of feces in a pen when somebody comes to "inspect." And if your dog flips his water bowl in excitement when they come, they'll see that flipped and empty bowl, and charge you for not having water there at all times. Spatulus/Sky has been harassing not only accused owners, but breeders and circuses and anyone else she can, for the last several years. Like Will Rogers, all she knows is what she reads in the papers. Such finger-pointing is counter-productive to opinions and thoughts expressed on pages like these, and only undermines her own credibility.
FauxPaws wonders about snakes that survive a winter "passing on cold-resistant genes." That's a physical impossibility, unless they could somehow become warm-blooded too.
Wayne Pacelle has stated personally that he has never had a bond with any animal. -This despite his writing a book on the subject.
By the way, if you'd really like to get rid of all exotics, keep in mind that horses are not indigenous to America either. And more people have been killed or maimed by horses than snakes. Should we send all horses back to Euroupe?
A classic debate tactic:
When one has no valid defense to a charge, divert! - Make an unrelated counter-statement that draws emotional agreement, like "Children and Radio Tracking Dog Collars found in the stomachs of Alligators".
Pit bulls and alligators are a separate discussion.
From Wikipedia:
"Adults can grow to a length of more than 8.7 m (28.5 feet)"
"On January 21, 2009 a 3-year-old Las Vegas boy was wrapped by an 18-foot (5.5 m) pet reticulated python, turning blue. The boy's mother, who had been babysitting the python on behalf of a friend, rescued the toddler by gashing the python with a knife."
"On October 23, 2008 a 25-year old Virginia Beach, Virginia woman, Amanda Ruth Black, appeared to have been killed by a 13-foot (4.0 m) pet reticulated python. The apparent cause of death was asphyxiation. The snake was later found in the bedroom in an agitated state"
"On September 4, 1995, Ee Heng Chuan, a 29-year-old rubber tapper from the southern Malaysian state of Johor, was killed by a large reticulated python. The victim had apparently been caught unaware and was squeezed to death. The snake had coiled around the lifeless body with the victim's head gripped in its jaws when it was stumbled upon by the victim's brother. The python, measuring 23 ft (7.0 m) long and weighing more than 300 lb, was killed soon after by the arriving police, who required four shots to bring it down."
(Source references give in article)
A 20+ foot predator is not anybody's 'pet'.
"Bill S wrote:
"We cannot glimpse the essential life of a caged animal,
only the shadow of its former beauty". Julia Field
I'd rather see a wild animal live in the wild and die early, than imprisoned his entire life, his every natural instinct thwarted and disrespected.
It is arrogance, selfishness and narcissism that informs people it's ok to keep wild animals, and risk harm to neighbors.
...
February 1, 2012 - 2:34 pm"
Is it surprising then, that our Prisons are overflowing with Men driven mad by, not only the above, but the additional programmed brutality, that characterizes our Penal System, among the most inhuman and corrupt in the World??
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
In response to Mr. Winston Card's comment regarding the fact that (according to him) reptile keepers are not addressing the fact that their are feral populations of reptiles in Florida...
Yes Winston, of course it is a problem. However, it is a problem for the state of Florida to work out and address (which I thought they had?...) and absolutely does not involve the entire United States of America and does not and did not require UNCONSTITUTIONAL federal government "intervention". THAT is the most important part of this entire situation in my opinion; that the Federal Govt once again is trying to control us all rather than allowing each state to decide what is best for it's citizens.
By the way, I am a reptile breeder. I primarily work with leopard geckos, which after 30 years of being bred in captivity for the pet trade are as domesticated as hamsters or guinea pigs. My husband works at one of the top zoos in the country in their herpetarium and has been a zookeeper working with reptiles since the mid 1980's. We understand and accept there is a problem in Florida! We believe that it is wrong and frankly ridiculous that the federal government just steps in and makes it a criminal offense to drive one of these pythons across state lines, and we intend to continue to speak out and educate "non-herpers" about this awful federal law.
dakirkwood, yes my captive bred corn snakes are very dangerous, I can barely sleep at night! [insert sarcasm]
Yes it takes money to take care of any animal, so I'm not sure why that matters.
Hope you realize that animal rights groups such as PETA have said they think it's cruel to have any pet, so if you're with them, I'm clearly wasting my time.
If I have the money, time, and energy to have an exotic and the knowledge and know-how, why shouldn't I be allowed to have an exotic.
I hope you realize that we've been captive breeding many exotics for over 200 years. I'm not sure why you're so against someone having reptiles, many of which are easier to care for than dogs or cats.
I think that the NPR listeners, just being NPR listeners, should be smarter than to think of the Zanesville incident as being an example of how exotic animal owners act. NPR listeners are smarter than to think that robbery and rape are typical of black men.
Wayne Pacelle and Tim Harrison, among others, are trying to create a new kind of bigotry that targets animals and animal owners. When they say "exotic animals" they mean that word that can't even be referred to by its first initial anymore. It's kind of a shame because if you could spell out that word, you could say what they are calling exotic animals and commercial breeders. The word, in that usage, means "target for our anger." It means "slave" and "person who we must rob."
This is not different from racism or ethnic bigotry. The same kinds of words, right down to words like "dangerous, wild animals" have been used against black people, and other racial and ethnic minorities. This is why you want to keep the literature available that says it the way that they said it not so long ago, so we can know what they did and see it when they repeat it.
Steve Mushynsky, OMG 3 Deaths!! Well there have been 8 deaths total in the US ever by non-venomous snakes. There were 31 deaths last year by dogs. Also the case with the woman can't prove it was the snake, how do you know an angry lover didn't kill her and cover it up with the retic? The number I gave of 8 did include her though.
These animals are gentle by nature, based on your argument size is the issue, so I guess a 1000+ lb animal is not anybody's pet either, sorry but I like my horses and all my snakes.
Dogs are predators too, hence why there was a two week old child killed last Sept by a lab mix.
Hate to break it to you, but snakes do not see us as food, there are some snakes that don't see mice as food either, hence why I've had some snakes refuse to eat mice, but they will eat chicks or quail. We don't smell like food to them, anything can happen which is why feral packs of dogs have attacked and killed people before.
Checkmate
The Freedom Argument -
Hearing people advocate for the right to keep exotic animals, using the argument that any restrictions would infringe on their personal freedoms, reminds me of a very common oversight often made with respect to personal freedoms. The assertion completely ignores the reality that very often the personal freedoms of various individuals can conflict. One person may enjoy listening to loud music at 3:00 in the morning while a neighbor may feel it is his personal freedom to sleep at that particular time. Or, my preference for driving on the left side of the road could come into conflict with the rights of more traditional drivers. So, when I hear this argument as I often do these days, especially in the political arena, I often feel I am listening to someone who just believes their rights are more important than everyone else’s. And, since freedom is such a strong word in our national heritage, they can cloak their selfishness in patriotism and allude to the constitution. So, although some may feel that they have a God given right to keep exotic or dangerous animals free of regulation and oversight, others may feel that they have a right to feel safe in their own neighborhood’s or that the environment they live in is as much theirs as anyone else’s and that it should be free of invasive species. Or, they may even view a wild animal as having a right to make the freedom argument.