Jeremy Rifkin: "The Third Industrial Revolution"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-09-27/jeremy-rifkin-third-industrial-revolution
An economist explains how internet technology and renewable energy are merging to change the way we live and work.
Guests
Jeremy Rifkin
president of the Foundation on Economic Trends,adviser to the European Union and author of "The Hydrogen Economy," "The Biotech Century" and "The End of Work."
Related Items
Author Extra: Jeremy Rifkin Answers Audience Questions
Q: The book title refers to "lateral power." What does this mean?
A: Lateral power means side-to-side power. On the Internet, millions of people share information in vast social networks, and the power of coming together side by side dwarfs the kind of centralized, top-down power that’s traditional. Converging the internet with renewable energies will allow millions of people to generate their own green electricity in their homes offices and factories and then share it across a vast energy internet, just like they now create their own information and share it online with millions of others.
Q: How could this third industrial revolution transform labor and politics?
A: Because the third industrial revolution is about lateral power, it favors small and medium-sized businesses coming together in networks to create new economic opportunities. The third industrial revolution will create thousands of new businesses and millions of new jobs. Manufacturing renewable energies, converting buildings to micro power plants, storing renewable energies in the form of hydrogen across the infrastructure, transforming the electricity grid and power and transmission lines into an energy internet, and revolutionizing the transport and logistics sector.
Q: While I'm a long-time fan of Mr. Rifkin's, he's mistaken about the feed-in tariff. The power generated by these qualified PV systems does not belong to the building/roof owner. One hundred percent of the power goes directly onto the grid. That power becomes a commodity to sell on the open market. The system may be owned by third parties that lease the factory roof; the electric power has long-term value because the cost to generate that power does not increase. Utility power does. This allows long-term investments in distributed generated power to increase in value, exactly what investors are seeking. - From Jim
A: PV systems can be owned by the local owner, which is often the case. Local owners of buildings can also lease out their infrastructure to third parties, as well. Increasingly, small and medium businesses and home owners in Europe are choosing the former course, and pooling their interests by creating producer and consumer green electricity cooperatives, in order to advance early adoption with significant scale up. In countries where there are feed-in tariffs, banks are not advancing green loans so that home owners and businesses can convert their buildings to micro power-plants. The savings in electricity is used to pay back the loans. After the loan is paid back, the electricity is virtually free for the owner.
Q: In Europe there is a larger tradition of government leadership in public investment. Here in the USA, in tradition and more particularly with the current political/budget climate, government-led solutions are problematic. We favor private-sector solutions. How are we going to lead from the private sector? Where are the niches where these technologies will develop on their own, without government subsidies or other intervention? Where are the opportunities for entrepreneurs and investors in the USA who believe in your thesis? - From Charles
A: Both the first and second industrial revolution in the U.S. required an ongoing relationship between local state and federal government, industry, and communities. It’s impossible to lay down a five- pillar infrastructure for a new industrial revolution without this kind of partnership because the five-pillar infrastructure requires comprehensive planning, which brings into the picture local governments as well as local businesses and communities.
Comments
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does this mean the poor will remain so
the ill will remain untreated
the power will corrupt
brother will steal from brother
and gold will be worshipped over life?
but by and by
in the sky
US will have pie???
more 'new' same old same old or will US be joining together with common goals to USe human efforts for all to enable individuals to contribute to themselves(US too), to their family and to community again?
US bet on the bugs, taxes, and death. Hmmm... depressions ARE difficult to control for maximum short term Return On Investments(ROI).
LOTSA profits in devalued assets. A few corporate people are going to SCORE BIG.
US brave new world- CANNOT wait. NO- Literally CANNOT wait.
Imagine US flag. Now imagine upside down flag...
The press has reported that you worked to block military experiments on shielding electronics and communications from electromagnetic pulse (EMP) effects. This was apparently due to your concerns about radio frequency biological effects. Why did you do this considering that EMP can have devastating impacts on the nation's electronics and communications infrastructure?
Refer to the Los Angeles Times, May 15, 1988
What role can the Federal government perform in this acidic political enviornment? Isn't full government leadership needed now?
THis guy is great- we need this word to get out more often. THANKS!
The people need to become educated on how we can obtain energy now with new technology and get away from coal, oil, and other outdated energy sources.
Rifkin talks about positive energy from commercial and residential buildings. Efficiency is the greatest part of this, with potentially 90% for heating, cooling and lighting as well as high efficiency appliances. This efficiency is what will make the local energy creation more useful and a net positive energy. (Passive Housing from Germany is leading the way)
Just imagine the United States where the 150,000,000 buildings pushing energy back. And this is possible today and the return of investment is already positive, if we can make changes to financing housing and building codes.
So, how do we make those two changes to the finance and codes?
Daniel Bennett
Washington, DC
To express my thoughts in one word "Brilliant". I like what I'm hearing and the president needs to schedule a meeting with Mr. Rifkin asap. I plan to buy and read his book. This sounds like a real solution to our slow growing economy.
I hate to have to say it but this wisdom your guest imparts is a waste of time and breath and broadcast air time. The only way we can make such things work is to arrest and take into custody the relatively few insatiably greedy magnates who hold the world in the palm of their hands and don't care if they smother and destroy it while they exploit it for their own material gain and pursuit of power. I wish there were an equitable and sensible way in effect to pursue the what we know is the common good but there isn't and never will be because we insist that stopping this destructive path violates their inalienable right to lie, cheat, murder and steal.
And I sincerely doubt that you would ever read this thought on your program.
Mr. Rifkin,
You declared nuclear power dead because of business reasons, but in the scenario you laid out, the only option is to have an unrealistic, gigantic nuclear buildout of some 4,000 units. Why is it not possible to do less than that in order to fill in some production capacity while other renewables are ramped up?
Do you think the proposition of new, smaller modular units on the hundreds-of-megawatts scale as opposed to the gigawatt-scale make more business sense? As for concerns over fuel, what about the Terrapower reactors?
How does this technology fit in with a "sustainable" global future? That is, would it be possible to implement/maintain this horizontal distribution without being reliant on technology that require materials made from minerals and.or resources that may/may not have to come from "third-world" mines or other less-than-desirable sources?
How to eliminate heath concerns of stray voltage?
Huge potential to store electricity in electric car & bus batteries at night?
Will legislation re:energy protect the economic interests of the individual citizen in our U.S. representative republic?
OK- here's a fantasy: Each continent consumes only the energy it produces.
I am neither a scientist nor an economist, but one thing I watch us creating and wasting is the potential energy produced by the friction of cars and trucks driving on highways. Is there a potential of additional energy there?
Mr. Rifkin,
The presentation of your pillars are so clear and efficient as is your communication. Are you intrested in leading a sort of revolution to force this to happen. A peaceful but firm overthrow of the goverment by the people is required to make this change. Our goverment is steeped in its own game of polotics. We need to follow the lead of some our fellow less developed countries that have created change. You are so right! Please find funding and be our leader to make this change, people will follow you to demand change. You have what it takes, I believe it is your purpose. I am not an irrational extremistist, I am a mother of four.
Thank You,
Angela Marchetti
What exactly is a "peaceful but firm overthrow of the government by the people"? Do you really think that the oligarchy would allow for a peaceful revolution? I'm sorry, I just don't see an American Velvet Revolution...it just doesn't fit the narrative of American history or the present socio-political status of our country.
While Germany has decided to leave the nuclear power generation paradigm, it has also, with the blessing of the environmental activists, the Coal power generation, RWE, the largest power plant operator in Germany is now rolling out 35 coal power-plants to replace the current nuclear plants within a 10 year time-frame.
A staunch opposition to both windpower, and solar systems by local communities are not uncommon across Europe.
I believe that while a 5 pillars concept might be an interesting intellectual pet to toy with, the realities that Mr Rifkin is referring to, are not quite what he is referring to.
Before his untimely departure, the founder of Swatch, did develop a concept for delocalized power generation and distribution using power cells. Which seems far more adequate, and economically viable then what is represented by Mr Rifkin. I would strongly suggest that before citing Europe as a reference, the realities of the European energy landscape shall be presented. An interesting example is Switzerland, where there has been less then 5% of electricity produced from fossil fuels.
Best regards,
G. Saouli
Geneva-Switzerland
I live in Dallas and have installed solar system that during summer time produces excess energy, to store it is expensive and most power companies are not interested to purchase it. I pay $ 0.12 to $0.14/KW to power companies but they offer me
$0.03 to $0.04 for my excess energy. This why the technology is not moving forward.
Do the energy companies get over $10 bil in U.S. citizen taxpayer money (From the U.S Budget) each year subsidy?
why are the latest solar energy products not available to the general public? Ths would stimulate the development of solar energy useage. Solar installations performed by companies are not economical (the savings are very long term) and are too expensive to encourage consumers to switch to sustainable energy sources.
"the oil companies won't give way", "big business won't let us", "the government won't allow"..........
Does anyone remember:
The divine right of Kings?
Colonial aristocracy?
Plantation/slave owner power?
Railroad political power?
All fell to innovation, justice, truth....... Why? (Geo-centrism never works).
Governments only 'think' they are in control, The rich who go to government to insure their power are ignorant of physics.
High concentration - low, osmosis & diffusion, Market dynamics,
Good ideas don't happen when governments dictate or grant. They don't happen because of social responsibility, (as much as we would like to believe in each other).
Ideas seed, implement, and take root when they are economically viable. Green tech has never been MORE viable. Pol's will not even be able to stop this any more than they are able to stop drugs or immigration.
Physics/God (shh... one and the same)
Thank you Mr. Rifkin. However, your plan requires leadership for the people and here in America we the people only exist to make the 700 Club of billionaires and corporations wealthy.
Since your plan is truly democratic it has no chance in our "Democracy" because it takes "power" away from the powerful.
I have studied economics and wrote a plan over two years ago calling for the large scale development of small scale solar, similar to the one in the book. I put this plan directly into the hands of the NC Sec of Commerce, the Lt. Gov. and Gov. The only thing that has changed in NC is there are now hundreds of thousands of more people unemployed like me. I never received a comment from any of them.
Duke Energy owns these people and they are building more new coal and more new nuclear. They will not tolerate any competition to their monopoly.
The good news is that they are asking for a 17% increase to pay for the new plants. this should help price solar in and there is a movement in the state for a feed in tarriff.
It is my hope that maybe they will read your book and at least have a better understanding. Please be assured they will not act because they and the entire legislature is owned by Duke the power and the glory.
those who see the future are powerless to act in any meaningful way we can only write books and make comments.
Just another perfect interview with a top-shelf guest that serves to illuminate your audience above the usual partisan paradigm. Way to go, Diane!! Rifkin's always been on the right side, but the losing end, of some of the most critical economic issues our country has faced for 25 years. Highly regarded everywhere but the US, maybe it's finally time for Rifkin to get a little more respect in his home country.
Mr. Rifkin indicated that an oil price of $150 per barrel or more stops economic growth, yet my understanding is that nearly all forms of renewable energy are more expensive than that produced by oil and natural gas. Can Mr Rifkin or one of your listeners refer me to an unbiased economic comparissons of the cost of production (per KWH?) for oil, n.gas, nuclear, coal, ethanol, wind, solar, photovoltaic, photov./hydrogen, etc ?
Interesting show (as usual), thank you!
. . . Awaking from sleep, after a long day in which I traveled with other Green Party mrmbers and allies from Houston to an evening conference in Port Arthur to present our views at one of the final public hearings on the ill-conceived "Keystone XL" pipeline project, I luckily tuned in to catch the last few minutes of the September 27 Diane Rehm Show.
. . . I will attempt to link author Jeremy Rifkin with the parallel political efforts of U.S. Presidential candidate Harry Braun, who is going to reorganize his lengthy website that aready addresses most of the concerns of Mr. Rifkin. Look for scientist and member of the International Association for Hydrogen Energy (IAHE) Harry Braun's Solar-Hydrogen Economy descriptions and scientific reasoning that comprehensively deals with governmental reform through 21st-Century U.S. Constitutional amendments at http://Braun2012.US
Rifkin and Germany - mostly right on,
but coal replacing nuclear is tragic.
San Antonio adopting part of Rifkin's plan:
But CPS has averaged rates w no
price signal to encourage efficiency
and conservation;
CPS emphasizes centralized solar.
Record heat & electricity demand this summer:
Texas' 40 coal plants (& in much of US)
running all out, but "when the electric grid need power
the most--in late summer afternoons when air-conditioners
are on full blast--the West Texas breezes often come to
a near standstill." 'A Mighty Wind' [or 'A Not So Mighty Wind']
August 2011 Texas Monthly
Most wind is centralized and needs transmission;
why Germans are opposed.
Rooftop/building solar is now ~18 cents per kwhr--
less than the cost of grid power.
Rifkin spoke highly of Feed-in Tariffs, but
utility cos. would recoup costs of
excess rooftop solar by spreading
costs to all their customers." This works in
more egalitarian Germany, but U.S. has
greatest gap between rich and poor of
industrial democracies.
Also, in US we have 'reasonable cost' in utility
regulation and a legalistic
definition of "utility"
--defended by armies of attorneys.
So how does one get over these hurdles?
Alternative to feed-in tariff--
probably thru Initiative process in
~22 states and cities with like Austin:
-Cost-based inverted rates --
like CA PUC schedule where usage over 800 kwhrs
is 40 cents/kwhr--cf. averaged rates in Tx of
~10 cents for all kwhrs; Texas av residential 14,000 kwhrs/yr
leads world.
-Carbon tax w 100% return across to the board, so
those conserving get more back than they pay.
-Net Metering or ability to 'zero out'
one's electricity bill by weatherization, efficiency,
rooftop solar;
-Finance above by attachment to property tax...
Thank you Diane for bringing on such a thoughtful and informed guest. I think we all could benefit by learning about his visionary and forward thinking ideas. Unfortunately there will be a lot of resistance from many directions, but if this country is to survive and prosper we will need an army of citizens concerned enough about our condition to make change happen. Mr. Rifkin is laying out a course of action. The question I have is this: do we, the American people have the desire to rise up to the challenge and do what needs to be done, or will we be left behind as other parts of the world step up and take the lead?
In Dec 2011 i signed an agreement and paid $8000 to a solar panel company to put solar panels on my roof. These panels would provide more power than I use. This company is dragging it's feet installing the panels. They will not hire the man power to install the panels - apparently because they say they have to much business. People need to do their do diligence in selecting a company. I am total disillusioned with solar power at this point and upset that I am not helping switch the country from fossil fuels to renewal energy.
angry and disillusioned
in Sierra Vista, Arizona
The energy conservation and alternative energy structure is great. The author does not address the fact that a large proportion of fossil fuels are used to create plastics and chemicals that are in virtually everything we use. What is the plan going forward to address that issue?
I listened with excitement and shared the link immediately with several people including our local politicians. In our local Florida community, several home owners have taken the leap and spent the $25,000 to turn their homes into mini power producing units. Our local private utility department has taken steps to make it less attractive by delaying permit approvals, etc. In order to make things happen individuals must be motivated to "get behind" a concept and push. Clearly, pressure must come from the top down and the bottom up, but it will happen...and soon...we need a lobbying organization to speak for this purpose. Is there an organization in place now?
Jeremy Rifkin deserved top billing above the Post Office budget crisis.
It is not so much the answers he provides as the alternative perspectives and provocative questions he raises. Actually, I'd like to hear his views on preserving the USPS as a public utility. Rifkin began his career in the Vietnam anti-war movement and he has been an important read for me since my teenage years. Obviously, his center on productivity is financed by his writing revenues. Not many people can say that. The more he "gives" the more he gives back: He's like a living, breathing solar panel. And yet I'm not beyond questioning Jeremy's motives or criticizing his coziness with the Establishment. His line on Green Food Production is careful and pretty much like mine. I like my foodstuffs to be accurately labeled, with non-GM and organic choices available. Jeremy looks pretty good for his age (67). He must know what he's doing on diet. Anyway, when Jeremy suggests something and critics say it's impossible, that gives us an opportunity to examine suicidal structural injustices in our socio-political system. Fixing those sort of problems is essential now.
It is pitiful to see the way the on-line ideologues dump all over this Rifkin proposal. I've often disagreed with him but, more often, not. A real idea man!
Everyone Keep your eye on Bloom Energy, they will play a big part.
All of this warms my heart that maybe we have a chance to save ourselves and the planet. It all needs to happen in spite of the fossil fuel industries.
The question is will we manage to do it all in time.
Way to go Germany, way to go Europe, way to go Mr. Rifkin!