Massacre in Norway
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-07-26/massacre-norway
The man accused of carrying out mass killings in Norway last week claims he had collaborators. The thirty two year old Norwegian is the alleged perpetrator of a bomb attack in downtown Oslo and a shooting rampage at a summer camp nearby. Eighty six people, many of them children, were killed. Before the attack, the man was known as a right wing extremist. He had ties to other far right groups in Norway and in Europe and espoused a virulent anti-Muslim anti-immigrant ideology. We’ll talk some of the many questions being asked about the man in custody and the possible links to far right radicalism.
Guests
Vanessa Fuhrmans
reporter, Wall Street Journal
Joshua Foust
fellow, American Security Project and the author of Afghanistan Journal: Selections from Registan.net.
Omer Taspinar
nonresident senior fellow, Center on the United States and Europe, Brookings Institution
Scott Shane
reporter, The New York Times
Comments
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As a Norwegian with permanent residency in the US for the past 15 years, there are a couple of things I see not commented too much in the American medias, but is commented in the main stream Norwegian medias. I would love some comments on the following:
a) Breivik's obvious admiration for the Tea Party here. He claims that the American Government (both the present and past) and the European governments are marxist, but that the Tea Party leads the way. I would think that supporters of the Tea party would want to distance themselves from such statements.
b) Not a lot of comments has been made here to the "cut and paste" from the Una-bomber's so called manifest. Yet, there are parts of Mr. Breivik's 1,500 pages he simply has copied.
and finally:
c) Media outlets here seems to stress that Norway will change, and become more paranoid, get stricter security, etc. However on Monday the whole Norwegian Government, alongside with the Royal family faced a crowd of thousands, seemingly without any heavy security, as to underscore the statements made that "We are not going to abandon our freedoms and open society".
Also the surviving children from the youth camp seem to be in agreement that they "will take their island back" and claiming that this horrific attack is not going to ruin our way of life. I hope this will stick, and that Norwegians will keep their positive outlook on human beings.
The present King Harald's father, King Olav, used to move about freely, and was once asked how he dared to move about without no apparent security. He looked around and pointed to his countrymen, regular bystanders, who were gathered around him, saying.. security, I have all the security I need.
It says something about maybe naivete, - but also a trust and confidence among Norwegians.
Britt McCary,
Maggie Valley, NC
Britt McCary wrote:
"a) Breivik's obvious admiration for the Tea Party here. He claims that the American Government (both the present and past) and the European governments are marxist, but that the Tea Party leads the way. I would think that supporters of the Tea party would want to distance themselves from such statements."
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This characterization of Breivik being a Tea Party follower is more of moonbat Craig Murray's propaganda bile.
http://www.craigmurray.org.uk/archives/2011/07/norwegian-killer-linked-t...
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"Inevitable: Anders Behring Breivik "Linked" to Tea Party by Liberal Provocateur "
"It should come at no surprise that Craig Murray has decided to now link the murderer Anders Behring Breivik to the American Tea Party (even though Breivik is Norwegian). His proof: someone named Anders Behring posted a link to Atlas Shrugs two years ago"
"Look, I know that in today's political climate everyone really wants to jump on a terrible story and scream that the other side caused it. For example, hundreds of liberal websites blamed the terrible shootings in Arizona in January on the Tea Party and Sarah Palin. Eventually, it came out that Jared Loughner was simply insane and deranged. His friends stated that he was liberal:"
http://punditpress.blogspot.com/2011/07/anders-behring-breivik-linked-to...
"While the left-leaning media is promoting this prurient “guilt by association” barely 24 hours after the victims’ bodies have gone cold, it should also be pointed out that Breivik also admired Obama."
***“I completely agree that Obama is a brilliant retoriker [rhetorician] and communicator, one of the best we've seen over the past 30 years.”*** Anders Behring Breivik Document.no website
While we spend so much time in US Debt ... We feel sorry for the events in Norway, but those kids have sort of invited trouble. It was their fault to be anit-israel. Nobody has forced them to like Palestinians.
http://radiopatriot.wordpress.com/2011/07/23/norwegian-campsite-utoya-was-socialist-and-anti-israel/
Saddam has messed with Israel. And then Libya's Gaddafi.
Before that, it was the Foreign Minister of Sweden, Anna Lindht, who suggested that Swedish people should Boycott Israel. She paid with her life.
Nobody Messes with Tel-Aviv.
Britt McCary: I appreciate your well-thought-out comments. I stand by our Norwegian friends (I have some who are close) and their ideals - and hope the same things for them.
Breivik's apparent ideological and communication links with far right networks seem relevant (that he admired Obama's communication skills doesn't).
Britt, to your point (c): I listened with admiration to responses to those questions, and hope others can learn from their examples.
Best wishes
J, OH
Right on Britt. How easily we judge others. We are judged without standards for accuracy. We judge solely on what we hear, see and read without thought and conviction of truth.
Is it not possible that we deserve what we get? The lack of assurance that every human should be guaranteed their basic human needs, opens the door for anti-social behavior. Is it possible that acts of retaliation against society is caused by lack of reason, knowledge and misguided revenge?
Suppose your child was killed by a drone guided bomber from a country foreign to you. How would you feel? Would you retaliate? How can we protect ourselves from the Mc Veys and Loughners?
The least costly and most efficient is a valid guarantee of the basic humane and human values. Some of us require more, others less. Finally, I point to persons of genuine faith such as Christian, and their leaders. Act responsibly, get involved, live and practice your faith. Begin with personal respect for all, even the worst. There go I?
Oh boy, this show ought to be good. Expect the words "right wing" to be repeated over, and over, and over, and over, and over, and over, until you are convinced that this horrific tragedy was masterminded by Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, and bankrolled by Rupert Murdoch.
Is there no shame here? What happened to honest journalism? It's sad really. Almost a hundred children are dead, and all the media can do is desperately try to tie this tragedy to republicans.
Why, why, why are you covering the killer and his writings?
He specifically said that the killing was the "marketing campaign" for his writing and point of view.
And so now you are rewarding him for murder, by giving him exactly what he wants, publicity.
Please stop rewarding murderers, just to boost your audience and ad income. Some of us see exactly what is going on here, and find it very offensive.
It's sufficient to say that somebody in Norway killed some people, and then go on to discuss the issue of immigration in a general way.
Please, stick with that. Immigration is news, killers are not.
i still havent heard what kind of weapon he used unless they are keeping it from us for the investigation. i am very interested to see what type of weapon he had because being on your own and killing that many people is not an easy task. he did have plenty of time however. how can they have that many kids on an island and no armed security presence. i live in indianapolis and there is no way they would've allowed that many kids to be in that isolated of a place with no armed presence. i dont beleive he was motivated politically. he wanted to kill people and he is using a political excuse. and the coward didnt even want to shoot at adults, he wanted to shoot at kids. hasnt he ever heard of the immigration office. its really not that hard to push immigration referendums and platforms. its really not that hard. look at arizona, indiana, and other states and countries. its the flavor of the month. he accomplished nothing by shooting and blowing people up.
I am very concerned that the media refers to Muslims who commit terrorism as islamic terrorists, but do not call Christians who commit terrorism "christian terrorists"
the vast majority of terrorism in the united states has been committed by christians-- from our roots of slavery, the k k k, to modern terrorists such as timothy mcveigh
anti-muslim racism is the greatest civil rights issue facing america today, yet you continue to foster this racism
If there was any proof that was ever needed that fundamentalism and extremism in ANY form is dangerous irregardless of the religious or socio-political motivations, this tragedy is proof of that.
Now more than ever is not the time to simply fragment into our little like-minded tribes but instead it is the time to reach out to fellow human beings and at least attempt to understand each other despite our differences. We've seen what happens when we don't, and this kind of paranoia can easily breed more paranoia and extremism if left unchecked and undressed.
Those of us here living in the USA should keep this in mind when the next round of Tea Party mobs starts up. To simply blow them off as "the extreme minority" would most likely be making a grave mistake to not at least take a closer look at what exactly is being promoted and supported in these groups.
lets not classify this guy as smart. he simply took advantage of a weak system. i dont know what world norway has been living in but the world the rest of us live in is a highly volatile environment and you have to protect children. ESPECIALLY WHEN ITS A BUNCH OF CHILDREN GATHERED ON AN ISLAND, BECAUSE APPARENTLY WE HAVE A PROBLEM PROTECTING OUR KIDS THESE DAYS.
This isn't giving him promotion, he may be part of this particular story and a big one at that but if we don't discuss why this man did what he did then we'll never learn how to prevent this sort of thing in the future.
Dear Diane and Guests-
The problem seems to be that we are putting right-wing/reactionary ideology over motivation in a cause-effect relations. But we've had people willing to commit acts of violence from virtually all different ideologies and religious backgrounds.
Perhaps the causal relationship is reversed. Perhaps these types of actions are done not by people who are motivated by ideology, but people who wish to commit an act of violence, to seize the spotlight through some extreme act, and utilize ideology to justify their action.
In a democratic society, you will have people who share beliefs. Some will utilize whatever belief system to justify their violent proclivities. That's the price of free speech and free thought- some individuals will act on these beliefs for violent reasons.
What we need to understand is that political violence in a democratic society is an act of despotism.
Fort Hood shooting suspect Maj. Nidal Hasan was not mentioned in you reference of acts of terrorism by right wing extremist, maybe he is a radical Muslim.
There are reasons why world populations have divided themselves with borders. There are reasons why the genders have evolved into predictable and expected rolls. Too many people have bought in to the idea that government control over it's populations can create an unnatural comradely in it's society. Arrogant political parties think through the force of law they can impose a world view over the objections of the governed. A balance of tranquility can only evolve on it's own, to intervene in this natural evolution of societies can only fail.
I'm of Norwegian descent and I love Norway's beautiful countryside and cities. I have been heartbroken by this tragedy, but it seemed to leap right off the pages of the novel I am reading called THE REDBREAST by Jo Nesbro. The novel discusses a Neo-Nazi movement in Norway and traces some of its ideology right back to WWII. Do your panelists see any connection?
The discussants do not address the socio-economics of migration to Western European nations. The citizens of these nations fear that people with migratory backgrounds, particularly those from Islamic countries, exploit their welfare states. In this context, it is important to find out whether migrants with jobs pay sufficiently into the system to support migrant welfare recipients.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/26/world/europe/26police.html?amp;smid=tw...
Not only in Norway, but in some other European countries, only a FEW of the police are armed.
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"
JSawyer wrote:
"Breivik's apparent ideological and communication links with far right networks seem relevant (that he admired Obama's communication skills doesn't)."
Best wishes
J, OH
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Really? Breivik idolizes POTUS Obama and that is irrelevant as a motivator for his actions, but a supposed communication link with a website is relevant? I would imagine that Breivik's own words coupled with his actions speak louder than a link to a website. But of course that wouldn't be following the lame stream media trumped up narrative that The Tea Party made him do it.
This issue will never be solved because ALL religions are intolerant of other religions. (The only exception would be Buddhists because they are the only true pacifists and many followers of Buddhism also follow other religions.)
We could get close if the leaders of these religions would impose and enforce harsh penalties for members who committed acts of violence against others because of the difference in faith. But, even within Islam, their leaders can't keep radicals from twisting what is said in the Koran like in the case of the Taliban. So until the true leaders of Islam (and all religions) step up and hunt down these radicals, we (the residents of the planet) will be in a constant state of war.
I believe that religion in general is nothing short of poison for the mind. Reason and religion can not coexist.
Midwest_Dirt_Hucker,
We already know why this man did what he did, because he's very honestly and plainly told us.
He told us that he did what he did, to promote his book and his views.
It's the same reason that all terrorists do what they do, to get free advertising for their cause.
Here's how it works.
The terrorists need free advertising. The media needs drama to boost audience and ad revenue. An alliance is created by the terrorists and media as each supply the other with what they need.
The media wins, the terrorists win, and the rest of us lose.
This is too intelligent of a show to participate in this murderous profit driven scam. I am posting this here because I have higher expectations for the Diane Rehm Show.
Bo Jones wrote:
"Not only in Norway, but in some other European countries, only a FEW of the police are armed."
"When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns"
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Norway doesn't have a death penalty or life in prison. The most this loon can get is 21 years. Now the Norwegian system of justice, which relies far less on punitive measures, but focuses on "rehabilitation," will allow this guy to walk free when he turns 32. Norwegians can only hope that a "rehabilitated" Breivik will only murder a few dozen when he gets out.
Of course, he could travel outside of Norway, in which case some unsuspecting country can host the mass murderer Breivik. Norway's focus on "rehabilitation" will be small comfort when Breivik is released and returns to form outside Norway's borders.
I would like a Constitutional Scholar and a lawyer to discuss why and how Sharia law is even up for debate. I teach history and I know our founding documents well, therefore, I am at a deep loss for how freedom of religion trumps a person's right to life.
While freedom of religion is a cornerstone of American society, it is not a tool to be used to take away another person's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. If this is the case, then Mormons have the right to legally practice polygomy. The Pope should be allowed to mandate that birth control use by Catholics be made criminal offense, etc., etc.
Freedom of religion is met to protect an individual's right to practice their God in their own way, however, it does not give that person the right or power to harm another individual in the name of their religion. This harkens back to the Inquisition, the KKK, Nazism, and other facists movements who dared to label their hate and fear as God's will. God in whatever form he/she appears in a given religion does not hate, people do that all on their own.
Midwest_Dirt_Hucker wrote:
"If there was any proof that was ever needed that fundamentalism and extremism in ANY form is dangerous irregardless of the religious or socio-political motivations, this tragedy is proof of that."
"Those of us here living in the USA should keep this in mind when the next round of Tea Party mobs starts up. To simply blow them off as "the extreme minority" would most likely be making a grave mistake to not at least take a closer look at what exactly is being promoted and supported in these groups."
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What does the Tea Party have to do with Anders Breivik? What acts of violence has any Tea Party member done? What acts of violence has the Tea Party ever advocated? What acts of violence has the Tea Party committed?
On the other hand, back in February, 2010, liberal neuroscientist Dr. Amy Bishop shot and killed three fellow biology professors on the University of Alabama's Huntsville campus. Perhaps we should be more concerned with what is going on in the minds of liberal college professors who have actually committed acts of violence.
Omer Taspinar argues that the mainstream European politics has moved to the right because of fear of losing the Christian identity, but that puts it as kind of a petty case of xenophobia. This crazy murderer may be an exponent of a larger group motivated by xenophobia, but mainstream politics has to deal with other issues. First of all, the high crime rate and unemployment among immigrants, which has been willfully ignored for decades out of fear of being labeled as racist. Secondly, Muslim immigrants are different from other immigrants in that the clerics have been quite vocal about how they oppose exactly those freedoms that Europeans have fought a whole century to achieve, including gay rights, women's rights, and freedom from religious bigotry, be it Christianity or any other religion. Add to that a few acts of actual violence committed by Muslim extremists and you do have real reasons for politicians to act. That is not about Christian identity or Islamophobia, that is simply about protecting freedom and equality.
I hope all the people in Norway get through this in unity and peace.
Scott Shane, the NYT reporter, and Susan Paige couldn't wait to bring up Tim McVeigh. True to form they characterized McVeigh as a "right-wing terrorist." Too bad that McVeigh was neither a conservative or a Christian. He was a self-proclaimed agnostic who declared, "Science is my religion."
Why didn't Shane and Paige bring up the Unabomber, Ted Kaczynski? He was influenced by the Green movement.
Caller Thomas expressed concern that Norway's gun laws couldn't be as loose as Arizona's. What? Thomas must have skipped over the U.S. Constitution 2nd Amendment.
The Norwegian Kipper bought his firearms legally. He had a registered Glock pistol and a Ruger semi-automatic rifle. This rifle is used for hunting and is legal in Norway. Maybe Thomas might realize that Draconian gun laws do not stop lunatics from doing what lunatics do.
It is a trajedy, indeed.
But when geographic politics are an isue among whole cultures, one... must have a whole world understanding of global societal oppertunities and barriors that are manipulated -politically.
I grew up in California and I was a very poor-achieving student [C's & D's -pass] on the Left-Coast =strait into college, it wasn't until I went...
But if one turns on the TV, one sees Hollywood [CA] fools! and New York winners, and European winners! then the boob-toob flashes to to Indian Ocean [Somalia, Persia, S.E. Asia... {vietnam-cigarets} and sino-Social-austerity] Missery poverty and exclusive-dictator-conspiracies to occupy the world that "we have shamed"
an HONEST-passive-compasionate society; to choose "the Correct" side? or THE WRONG side?
do you want NORMALCY? or do YOU want to serve YOUR CULTURE and benefit-Security and Social Responsibility. If one[nation] properly balances culture with quantified policy/intervention [like Seeing! "the future"].
Many Northern Europeans came to America as "guests" and believe-you-me, any! return to WHERE THE LOVE IS, where global resonsibility is Positively charged with a destination that works together multilatterally with tolerance of Global justice, conspiring specifically FOR that Normal, "is" normal.
Ones OWN CULTURE can neurtalize-quantitatively.
The Pope inSpired the crusade$. Science! can UNDO.
Well the unibomber was nit hansoom, And Brave-vic wasn't a "science experiment victim" [oh,',' California's got class, green class, Austalia too,Gibson?].
Such comparisones [no es normal?] are to the actions/annon-victims and one time events, not sustained experiments, but lunar-defootprints en Atlantic navigable extremes. To trace these lines is to prevent spider-manic psychiaTrick,;, christian filters pre-cruSaddness, defined! through the looking glass - clarity and trans-Parent[,] opaque reflections to be polished by alien ...service. and adJust-ed by compassionately preempting incidental [inside pro/ee-spire-vent-ion's destinn-ation-Y man'o'fest ~S.F...?W?-gee] 3rd-level/Rat-E ___wiki-doctors___, who ___-_preVent! disrespecting NATurAl culture wit One apParently Christian adoption (tea){unified securiTy!}, sans guessing, but working with what we NOW know, and praying it's not too late to LibeRate!!! innocense from ignorance. and Serve-con-tent-tive locations! with [what] youthful opptimal innocence and [2 Tune!] to escape{(!}) the unreal experiment and it's reflections of "reaILLlutions" within faceless fear. -periferial decisions -spell{of}justice, read with [A-/F+] consentration on Geography! naturAlly, and EASY poverty bliss. [Ed feed Isreal by the book] and the mass'es defused like "CaliPHarMediation", balancing confidense with past concenture'' and and toyota's-right-Hand sloot^ onn the left side of the road. man=iPlused dest=iNaviGullver, where safety lies [before fear desides] and good-love collides on historic tides and B[P]rides moral sighs, indi ample safety sample.
Missing from the discussion is the fact that they have youth party camps.
Did they not learn from history?
Anyways the idea that muslims aren't integrating into europe because of european racism is kind of simplistic. When a large minority population harbors antisemitic, misogynistic, homophobic, close minded views about religion and freedom of speech, why would they feel welcome in a free progressive society?? Why should europeans bend over backwards to make such people feel more welcome? Why should they import more and more to infect their society? It would be like san francisco somehow importing hundreds of thousands of homophobic southern baptists into their city and somehow pretending that wouldn't undermine their society and values.
Like it or not multiculturalism in europe means something different, it is separatism, the readiness to wear the headscarf and traditional clothing is stronger in european countries. These populations are fighting back against the secular state, and as such they are a threat. The left only turns a blind eye to this, and so they create the right wing backlash by undermining their own progressive ideals by not really being ready to defend what they believe in. They were willing to smite religion back into its place when it was their own, but with islam somehow they've become enablers.
Anyways these left labour types would have been the first to point out foreign policy and other grievances after the 9/11 7/7 attacks. We've seen it for the last decade. After all grievances must always be legitimate, now I wonder if they continue that line of thought when the shoe is on the other foot.