U.S. Manufacturing and Engineering Work Force
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-06-07/us-manufacturing-and-engineering-work-force
The nation’s unemployment rate crept back up to 9.1 % last month, a disheartening figure for the many Americans looking for work. But there is another problem: a number of employers would like to hire but can’t find qualified applicants. The gap between applicant qualifications and the skills required for many of the available jobs is growing. Recent studies show that American students have fallen behind their counterparts in other countries in math and science skills, and this is happening as many companies, especially manufacturers, rely on an increasingly skilled workforce. Join us for a conversation about the challenge of educating for the jobs of today
Guests
Emily DeRocco
Manufacturing Institute, research arm of the National Association of Manufacturing
Gary Green
president, Forsyth Technical Community College,
Winston-Salem, North Carolina
Byron Auguste
senior partner, McKinsey & Company
Michael Davidson
senior analyst, Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development
Comments
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During the heyday of British Empire those of lower birth and lesser rank, if they exhibited sagacity and ability, were rewarded with a colonial post. Ideologically we are supposedly exporting procedural "democracy" where resources (or lack of resources ) permits. College is so expensive and attuned to affluence that many of our best high schoolers are considering education in India, Eastern Europe, the Caribbean, even China. One of my closest friends has a son studying musicology in Mongolia, because he couldn't afford a conservatory or even community college here. (He'll be ready for our revolution because he can now shoot a rifle while riding a woolly horse barebacked.) If you had an engineering education and wanted to stay in the Homeland, what kind of job could you get with factories moving away and immigrant visa holders underbidding you? C'mon, it's not like we're planning a Moonshot or curing cancer. Ask any drug corporation: Curing cancer could be disastrous for our Economy. But we are still building the Dodge Charger, the Camaro and the Mustang. Ain't we smurt? It's not the People or the Educators who decide these things. It's the Masters of Empire.
It's been recently estimated that $1 out of every $14 Pentagon dollars goes to Lockheed Martin (note that DoD's proposed 2012 budget is $550 B, and Lockheed's sales last year were $38 B, so the numbers are in the rough ballpark).
If you add up all the dollars that go to military contractors (e.g., Boeing, Raytheon, Northrup Grumman, etc.) plus all the civil works that are funded by federal, state and local governments, it appears that much of our engineering workforce is funded through taxes (I don't know what proportion).
In the face of our current large government deficits, will there continue to be enough public funding in future years to sustain a large engineering workforce?
My son is a graduate of a prestigious institution with degrees with honors in computer engineering and in computer science. My daughter's boyfriend has degrees in math and computer science. It took my son 11 months to find a job. It took the boyfriend 18 months. Both of these young men applied everywhere, but nobody would even give them a chance. Why should a student even try for a degree in these fields when no one will hire them? Both young men now have jobs in computer science but at very low pay. So what good are the degrees in engineering and math anyway?
I have been listening to this important topic and have heard many similar discussions. When worker shortages exist in market economies, the compensation offered by employers should be increasing. Yet that issue seldom comes up. It seems like employers want to fill these jobs they describe as critically important without paying enough to attract the relevant workers. We would like this issue to be raised with your guests. Since the economy is being strangled by the falling compensation of so many workers, it would seem like the employers and workers in need of jobs would mutually benefit from higher pay for these jobs. I suspect that workers with the skills sought are out there, but employers' drive to lower worker compensation is the barrier to filling these jobs.
I am a counselor at a comprehensive high school that has a Welding program. Most students who go into this program have little interest in college, despite encouragement from staff. One problem is community attitude. This is a field that has traditionally been filled by high school graduates. Our students look at fathers, uncles, neighbors who never went on to college, nor needed to, yet were able to provide a good living for their families. It is difficult to get students to understand the world has changed and they need to change with it and look at welding (or another tech prep program) while still planning for additional training after high school.
Teachers don't choose to teach to the test, they would prefer to have time to explore subjects like the could before the era of endless assessment tests,but the yardstick the federal government uses to rate teachers and schools is test scores. Is there anyone who believes that this is a recipe for success and advanced critical thinking. Don't hate the players, hate the game.
As a parent who works hard every day to help my children find the opprotunities for STEM education that are not being providied in the classroom, I am so fustrated with how this promenent national conversation does not translate into money for the k-12 STEM prgrams that we know work, like FIRST Lego League and Robotics, Math Counts and Odyssey of the Mind.
I spend all my volunteer time fundraising so these programs can exist in our community. Where is the money for equipment and training for volunteers??? We need 'boots on the ground' now!
I, and a group of like minded parents have finally resorted to forming a non-profit so we can raise community awarness, connect professionals to students, train volunteers and seek funding.
www.newtonsroad.org
When comparing US students with students in other countries, I am concerned that we are comparing apples and oranges. In the US we test every child who is able to sit up and hold a pencil - non-English speaking, mentally handicapped, emotionally handicapped, etc. In many other countries, children are tested in fourth grade and tracked. If they do well, they are put on an academic track and continue to be tested. If they do not do well, they are put on a vocational track and are excempt from the testing system. This does not allow for an equal comparison - ALL of our students against only the best and brightest of other countries.
There really is no reason that kids arrive at middle school unprepared except for the delusion that childhood is a magical place where independent little spirits should roam free of any limitation. The little rascals need to be wrangled up and pointed down the path to achievement. Yes, it can be made fun but the basic tenet that every choice is important and every outcome is gainful has to become habit even in the young (K-6).
I look at the industrial revolution and see that the outsiders of English hierarchy skipped the Liberal Arts and went into trade schools. They changed the accepted way of doing things for the well to do and became the well to do. In the US, the trades classes have been take out of public schools. We've dumped trades in favor of Liberal Arts, basically undoing what the Industrial Revolutionaries saw as a way out of a moneyed class structure.
A coalition of decicated parents have been trying to get these exact issues addressed in Arlington Public Schools for more the 10 years. Sadly, even this week we are getting questions from the school administration on the definition of sustainibility. It is bewildering to know that in such an enlightened community it is so difficult to get people in the business of education connect the dots between enviromental lieracy and hands on learning to Science Technology Engineering and Math.
Great event tonight on this very subject go to
4201 Wison Blvd.
go to cafescientifique.org/arlington.htm for more details.
One of my favorite speakers on the subject of Sustainibility, Martin Olge will be there, along with one of the advisors of the winning science fair students, Jim Egenreider talking about STEM education.
I hope we will see members of the APS system there. There really need the lesson.
If you live in Arlington, Virginia and care about STEM Education, it is time to get vocal and get involved. You currently do not have a school board member who really gets this concept. And that is clear from drop out rates and slipping acheivement.
Send your comments to the Arlington Public Schools System and demand the new stategic plan (soon to be released) include Environmental Literacy, Sustainibility and Stewardship. We need more applied-hands on learning and the way to do that is by teaching applications of these critical concepts as the relate to STEM.
One of the largest pools of trained, functionally-proficient employees for management, logistics, and medical services are veterans of US military service. The current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan are sustained by effective, efficient, and secure supply chain operations. The same can be said for the NCOs and Officers who experience management of personnel and resources under challenging conditions, and the military medical technicians whose skills have been honed by increasing the survival rate of battlefield casualties.
Veterans transitioning from military to civilian life have extensive training and functional experience under the harshest of operational conditions, where their abilities to perform effectively can make the difference between mission success or failure, or life and death. Unfortunately many of counselors at employment placement agencies have a limited understanding of the applicability of militarily-acquired skills and experience to jobs in the civilian sector. It may be worthwhile to start by educating employment staffing firms about the very valuable human capital that will become more immediately accessible as more servicemen and women are released from active duty and returned to life in the civilian marketplace.
I grew up in Dayton Ohio a very large manufacturing center during the 50's and 60's. We watched union manufacturing move into southern states and then of course a great deal of that manufacturing moved over seas so that the mostly men on the top could make even greater profits. I am spending a great deal of time in the area again helping take care of aging parents. A while back I met a laid off GM worker who was applying for a job at Wal mart where is 18 year old daughter worked.
How can manufacturing really come back in the US when they are competing against low wages over seas and little to no tariffs put on bringing those goods back into the states?
One of my older uncles who was a graduate of MIT and engineer at Wright Patterson Air Force Base for decades has said that women in engineering careers has only increased by 2% in 20 years. Can your guest please discuss the lack of real growth of women in engineering fields
I know personally, that after 15 years of working in manufacturing, environmental cleanup, construction, and laboratories, among other engineering and science-oriented fields, and having done undergrad research in college ( I have a pre-med BS in biochemistry) in Science Education, with the conscientious intent to "retire" from the field, and go teach math in science, with real-world experience... that lateral entry of actual experienced engineers and scientists into the schools needs to be fostered. We called it Paedagogical Content Knowledge. Four years in the College of Education isn't enough to teach these skills. I learned my math and science, beginning with a retired high-school teacher turned professor, from people who were really sharp in the field. I'd say I was lucky to have the series of STEM teachers that I did through post-secondary, and that my experience, which contributed to my choice of specialties, was not typical.
I also took technical, vocational community college classes FIRST, before attending 4 year college... I know this reads like my resume, but that is the point - I wanted to get something real to take into the classroom - but teachers are being fired, not hired here and across the country, and that makes it all that much harder for us STEM professionals to "enter lateraly"
I am an unemployed Chemical Engineer with an MBA from a leading university. To keep my sanity while looking for work, I tutor and coach students at the high school and college level in math and science. My observation is that high school and college programs do not teach the focusing skills that will enable students to become experts in their field of study. I recommend that my students take a serious look at disciplines that offer professional certification. This is the only route that ensures portability of your skills and recognition of the expertise that one has built throughout your career be they a plumber, electrician, CPA or Mechanical Engineer. Finance or business degrees without a CPA are a recipe for unemployment and lack of versatility in your career options. Engineers without a professional license reduces the same to the status of expendable labor without unionized protection. As a person in mid career, I am willing to retrain but have a difficult time abandoning the knowledge I've gained over my lifetime.
let's not forget that there is far more to having a successful and happy life and a great country than solving math problems.
I enrolled in engineering 40 years ago without a good background in high school math and science. In fact, my Algebra II teacher told me that I should never take another math course. It took me an additional semester to graduate due to this lack of high school preparation. I survived this lack of preparation, but it is too bad I did not get better advice in high school.
Engineering has been a very rewarding career for me. I'm now the vice president of engineering for a supplier of high tech controls to the refining and power industries.
While there are shortages of engineers, I also know several engineers that are out of work. They seem to fall into two categories: they did not continue to learn new technologies and skills or they got out of engineering for a while. They seek my advice on re-entering the engineering business, but they don't take it.
The loss of manufacturing jobs in the US is most surely related to our lack of technical leaders. I occassionally get involved in career day at a local middle school to pitch technical careers. But I routinely get challenged by kids to justify why a smart student should seek a technical degree when jobs in finance pay so much better. That's a tough one.
I read a recent article that suggested that much of the problem in comparing US schools to the international averages stems from high poverty schools, as measured by the percentage of children receiving subsidized school lunches. Briefly, the poorest 20% bring down the US average a great deal and the top 80%, especially the top 20%, are competing quite well.
Is this a valid conclusion?
I'm sorry I can't immediately identify the article, but it was in a periodical for teachers.
This was just on Market Place last night -
The problem with China's college entry test
Marketplace, Monday, June 6, 2011
Listen to this Story
High school graduates in China must take the gao kao. These national college entrance exams decide who gets into the best schools and eventually the best jobs. But as China moves toward a more innovation-based economy, the tests may prove problematic.
Ryssdal: It's basically rote memorization, right? These kids have been studying for years.
Schmitz: Yeah. So the gao kao is at the center of China's education system. In that system, especially in high school, those three years of high school that Americans might spend taking your typical lib ed and science and math and everything, and thinking about problems and all this stuff -- Chinese students are actually preparing for this test. I mean, high schools in China are glorified test-prep institutions. The problem is that you're not spending that much time on actually solving real problems. You're busy memorizing correct answers.
In my opinion what is being overlooked is the affect of black and Hispanic students and their cultural lack of respect for education. I have seen it for myself, teachers are forced to teach to the level of the worst students in the class. So obviously the potential of the better students is stymied.
It isn't in the govenments best interest to educate the citizens when Corporations are at the helm. Our ignorance raises their bottom line.
What seems to be missing in the conversation is the expectation of parents that their children be rewarded for their payment of college tuition by getting good grades, regardless of achievement. My wife is a college professor, so I hear about this frequently. The factor that counts the most in her in getting a raise is student evaluations. For the most part, students are only happy if they get good grades. Only if she abandons her ethics and belief that students should earn their grades can she expect to get promoted.
By the way, she teaches future school teachers.
Look at the picture above. Both boys. Hmmm
What are the stats on girls being chosen vs boys to answer questions in math and science classrooms. When my 31 year old daughter was in middle and high school and is quite adept in science and math used to put her head down on her desk or act like she was looking out the classroom windows to get the instructors to ask her questions in these classes . She said this strategy almost always worked How much does this subtle but destructive discrimination still go on in classrooms?
www.khanacademy.org
Anyone can get an outstanding education in mathematics from single digit addition through vector calculus. The Khan Academy has proved support for over 52 million exercises thus far. It is total online and free. It is supported by Bill Gates and it is online. Through the dashboard--a means to monitor the students progress--anyone can act as a mentor for any student that selects.
Have your guests heard about or gone to the Gates/Khan video at www.khanacademy.org? Distance learning is in many ways superior to classroom education. Gates and Khan have lead the way. This web site is used in classrooms. The teacher is leveraged and is able to focus on specific problems with individual students rather than spending the bulk of their time regurgitating text book content.
It's not always about a lack of skills or interest. Sometimes its stereotypes and misinformation that prevent students from choosing and/or moving forward in career paths in STEM fields. They don't know where to go to find an opportunity that fits for them. Currently, the National Science Foundation funds the Advanced Technological Education (ATE) program at community colleges across the country. This is one solid example of a program that is making a difference to combat the realities you are discussing today. We are the producers of www.atetv.org ... and it has been our goal to maximize resources like the Internet to bring critical information about STEM career paths and opportunities to students in a manner they are now becoming accustomed to using to get their information. To make a bigger impact, one thing we all can do right now is to work harder to share information about the programs in place that are working. Information is power!
I came here after finishing medical school from India, which implies that I took the biology branch in high school instead of mathematics, then passed my pre-med (equivalent of MCAT) right after 12th grade and did 6 years of med schooling including practicum (equivalent to residency).
The first thing that struck me on arrival and integrating in the grad school system in the US was that I was easily able to solve math problems and accomplish reading in English (not my first language) than average grad-school classmates. In fact my professor sought me out to tutor aspirants for our grad school for the GRE (Graduate Recognition Exam). Easily without taking the tests the European scoring system guest talked about, I can say that we in the US lack many mathematical skills for everyday work life. I am not biased or cocky, simply astounded by how hard it is for my fellow workers at a healthcare admin facility to quickly calculate simple math issues in their head versus I. I know many of my friends here from India feel the same way. I know there are simple efforts that will make school harder to go thru here, but will make life easier on a day-to-day basis after school. Its true that only the gifted with good neighborhoods or socio-economic status American born friends give me a run for my money. Still there are many things enviable in the US system versus others like mine, but that's a lot of desirables not needed unless we square away the math and reading-writing pieces.
I wish I was going thru the fun part of American middle and high schools, but with the tough-love learning attached with the Chinese-Indian-Asian cultures. Is that possible? Ashish (aah-she-ish) Houston, TX
I always have to disagree with those who say some don't need the 4-year degree. The type of people who only want the vocational educations are often the very types who don't value the "math club", but instead the sports teams. 4-year degrees enable people to study things that they perhaps wouldn't otherwise find interesting. It simply broadens the mind.
Also, if so many of these companies need these skilled workers - why can they not train them themselves, or pay for their educations? No - they want it for free...for the worker to be saddled with debt while being paid a wage that will take his lifetime to pay that debt.
Quick follow up. One of the most influential books I have ever read is written by Neil Postman & Charles Weingartner, 1969, "Teaching as a Subversive Activity." Curiously, the information is "still" relevant....
How can a kid in Glouster Ohio (who has I believe around 8500 a year spent on them) do as well as a kid in Dublin Ohio (has I believe around 12 thousand spent on them) not do much much better. The way funding for schools is distributed in Ohio has been determined to be unconstitutional three times by Ohio Supreme Court. Strickland was on his way to changing that. Not going to happen now that Kasich is ruling Ohio
The problem is that the incentives for actually excelling in math and science are not there. Students don't need to study hard to get a management job where they will make far more money than they will as a scientist. Even people that are scientists are looking for different fields to advance.
Many big corporations have moved their plants (especially manufacturing) to other countries to save more (and more) money. Therefore, the jobs and incentives are lacking for engineers and scientists. Companies that have moved to other countries for cheap labor should be fined because that is making our employment go up, thus more money needed for unemployment. In addition, we lose our important science and technical jobs, discouraging more students not to go into the tech fields. We have lost an incredible amount of manufacturing jobs-- America should be ashamed of itself for sending our jobs overseas! It was all for the CEO's pocketbooks.
The government and laws is the only way to rectify these problems. They need to make companies stay in America and they need to make them pay their fair share of taxes. Taxes will assist our education system and allow for more scholarships and programs to encourage math and science.-- let alone, having the proper taxes being paid will assist our deficit.
And the laws even may need to require equalization of pay for the employees in the middle range (engineers) to the management (CEO's, etc) since the pay differerntial can be 100s of times more. Other countries don't have such a wide inequity.
This is all encouraging Americans to go for the path of least resistance- forget technical and study business (not science) to deal with the money.... well guess what there jsut aren't enough of those jobs available- thus more unemployment!