Is College Right for Everyone
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-05-16/college-right-everyone
President Obama has called on every American to receive at least one year of higher education or vocational training by 2020. For most young people, that means heading to campus in the pursuit of a college degree. But for a small, influential group of educators and economists, pushing the college experience is wrong. A recent report from Harvard backs them up. It found that only one-third of future jobs will need a bachelor’s degree. The report’s researchers said it’s time to offer stronger alternatives. The debate over the value of a college degree is not new, but the current economic crisis has renewed discussions. Diane and her guests re-examine the “college for all” movement.
Guests
Claudia Dreifus
co-author of "Higher Education?: How Colleges Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids and What We Can Do About It"; adjunct associate professor at Columbia University; science writer for The New York Times.
Jeffrey Selingo
editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education.
James Altucher
New York-based venture capitalist, and the author of the new book “How To Be the Luckiest Person Alive,” which includes the chapter: “8 Alternatives to College."
Nina Marks
president of Collegiate Directions Inc.; principal of Marks Education.
Jan Bray
executive director of the Association for Career and Technical Education (ACTE).
Program Highlights
Is College Worth the Expense?
A growing group of educators and economists say paying increasingly high rates for college and racking up thousands of dollars of debt does students a disservice - especially in a down economy, when even having a four-year degree from a prestigious university can't help boost graduates' job prospects the way it might have in the past.
"We're basically graduating a generation of indentured servants. I think this is the downfall of the American dream," said New York-based venture capitalist and author James Altucher.
Jeffrey Selingo, editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education, said he thinks that there has been too much emphasis on the 4-year B.A. program, when many students don't stop to consider certificate programs, 2-year programs, and other alternatives to the more traditional (and, arguably, expensive) college path.
Student Options as Costs Skyrocket
"When I left high school in 1954, less than half of our graduating class went to college, and yet them seem to have done fairly well," Diane said. "What's the difference between back then and now?"
Altucher said that because a lot of employees in hiring positions are college-educated, they tend to trust prospective employees who are also college-educated. Back in the 1950s, Altucher said, there seemed to be greater opportunity for career success among those who were not college-educated, especially if they were "achievement-oriented."
"The big deal is to focus on some sort of credential," Selingo argued. "The fact is that a high-school diploma doesn't cut it in this day and age. The types of jobs going to be created within the next 50 years - we have no idea what they're going to be," he said.
Do Degrees Translate Into Jobs?
"When I left high school in 1954, less than half of our graduating class went to college, and yet them seem to have done fairly well," Diane said. "What's the difference between back then and now?"
Altucher said that because a lot of employees in hiring positions are college-educated, they tend to trust prospective employees who are also college-educated. Back in the 1950s, Altucher said, there seemed to be greater opportunity for career success among those who were not college-educated, especially if they were "achievement-oriented."
"The big deal is to focus on some sort of credential," Selingo argued. "The fact is that a high-school diploma doesn't cut it in this day and age. The types of jobs going to be created within the next 50 years - we have no idea what they're going to be," he said.
Comments
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People are never just plumbers, they are voters, consumers, parents, community members etc. people need a broad education so they can understand important debates that will affect their future, in order to understand things like why this financial crisis happened, and how to prevent another one... how to tell if a politician is using "socialism" as a scare tactic... because they will have actually learned what socialism really is... as parents, people can learn how to make good decisions for themselves and their families when it comes to food... and generally learn how to be a more engaged citizen by simply understand what is happening around them. I have come across a lot of engineers who know nothing about 'the world,' and the amount of myths they believe about race, sexuality what ever - is astounding. it is not enough to have one set of "skills," or to value one set of "skills" over another. All of these skills are important and there is no justification for getting rid of critical thinking skills (eh hem Plato), because we think ONLY knowing how to build a bridge or to create green technology is more important than the critical thinking necessary to understand the nuanced social arguments that have lead us to realize that green is good in the first place.
Excellent topic!
I wasn't able to hear the beginning, tho. Did anyone bring up the fact that administrative costs are rising the same way they are in the financial industry? The costs of staff are rising in line with inflation, but the administrative costs are skyrocketing. (I work for a state University.) Administrators also are hired to supervise as few as 3 employees.
Perhaps this can be a theme for another show.
Lower-Middle class youth should not be limited to 'job training'. The culture and community at prestigious schools combats ignorance and allows students to blossom to their full intellectual potential.
As a recent graduate deep in debt (100,000+ before interest) I feel the real issue is not what the schools are offering, or even what they are charging, but the predatory private student loan lenders.
Many freshmen are encouraged to explore their options, told to declare a major their sophomore year. In reality, this delay in focus usually means a later graduation date. Inconveniently, federal loans tend to dry up after year 4 for undergrads who are financing most of their education expenses. That is where the private lenders step in and offer VERY high interest loans to finish the job.
I find it hard to believe that this is a coincidence.
Why is it that so many mentors in the University community are not in touch with what their advice translates to down at the financial aid office?
It is not the cost of my education that keeps me up at night, it is the interest rates I fear I will never catch up with. I currently pay over $1,000/month towards my student loans (50% of my after tax income).
I feel that recent graduates need more flexibility in the form of protection from these unreasonable interest rates so that they can afford to volunteer or work for lower pay when they start out... THAT is where I think these elusive 'job skills' can be gained. Big banks need to be prohibited from suffocating recent graduates.
It is not enough to offer advice to those heading to college from here on out. What about people like me, who went to college with loads of encouragement, and graduated just as the recession hit? As I struggle to pay my loans I also face high gas prices and a terrible economy. All the while the banks keep adding up that interest...
@tanyasau
EXACTLY.
The guests on this show dismissed PhD Nursing programs with a laugh, thus displaying their complete ignorance about the subject. Far from being an outsized and ridiculous advanced degree, Nursing PhD's contribute a huge amount of new research to all areas of healthcare. And we teach future nurses.
I wrote an article for the Chronicle of Higher Education back in 2009 suggesting that student loans' payback conditions should be tied/contingent to and on the economy.
Do you have a link?
I second that opinion. I felt there was too much being said during this discussion that was just not true and offensive to those living the reality. I was so excited to listen to the story, but then disappointed by the apparent lack of 'real' people in the discussion... it was painful for the educated listener. Is more research/planning needed before broadcast? Such a wonderful opportunity to spread awareness, wasted in a confusing dust storm.
The discussion on this morning's program was interesting and important. I would add the following points/opinions and welcome other listeners comments:
1.) Higher education serves 2 simultaneous important purposes for the student. The first is to learn critical skills of thinking, reasoning and to assemble an essential internal collection of information that will aid them in approaching every decision and challenge they will face for the rest of their lives. This is done by reading great books and writers, studying quantitative disciplines, writing to the point where it hurts (and then some more) and committing to memory a critical body of knowledge. Herein the student develops the skills and rigor to approach the many challenges that will face him or her in life. We have failed students in the development of trendy mush laden contemporary curricula that address currently quasi intellectual fads rather than the great books, ideas and writers whose work truly addresses that which is universal. The second mission is the development of a skill set that will serve the student in the work place. This balance is essential and several of the guests this morning seemed to emphasize one to the exclusion of the other.
2.)The market will address the great need for jobs about which one of the guests this morning seemed so genuinely concerned. The dire need for "wind technicians" or other such positions will be efficiently and adequately reflected in what the market pays these individuals. If you added 100K per year to the average salary of a wind technician the line would likely form to the right for proper training. True demand will drive reimbursement. The rest sounds a little like elitist fantasy stuff of how their perception of the world ought to be.
University administrators like elected officials have exercised embarassingly limited fiscal restraint. The costs of attending premier institutions are by any reasonable measure excessive. Formulas abound that they use in alumni magazines etc. to justify what is simply wrong. Working hard to pay for a good education for several years after college is reasonable. A lifetime of financial debt at the beginning of adult life is not.
An excellent podcast. Thank you. I graduated from college in June 2008 with a liberal arts major that focused very little on real-world skills. The best learning experiences I received were not through classes but through internships. Thankfully, I minored in something that was semi-helpful in finding a job. I think that there needs to be a dynamic change in college curriculum with more focus on career skills, especially for people who have no idea what they want to do with their lives.
Also, a number of my peers are getting advanced degrees. Similar to what was stated on the podcast, they are going to be very high in debt because of it.
A BS is one type of post secondary education, there are also trade schools and 2-year schools. One third of jobs require a Bachelors degree in the US, but many more require some form of post secondary education. Plumbers, car mechanics, nurses, etc all require school beyond high school, but do not need a 4 year college degree.
It seems to me that every college should, before the student is accepted, be required to supply some sort of documentation along the lines of "Recent graduates from *this college* with the degree you desire are currently earning between $X and $Y per year following graduation". I have heard, multiple times, on a radio talk show dealing in financial advice, persons calling in in financial ruin due to student loans and other real-life problems, having found themselves hopelessly in debt, and discovered that their 4-year (or greater) degree gave them absolutely no marketable skills. God bless librarians, for instance, but paying off tens of thousands of dollars of student loans on a librarian's wages (including nights and weekends) may not be realistic. I heard a different talk show host advocating going to a state college for two years, then completing the degree at some "high end" college; he says nobody cares where you studied, only where you graduated from.
I must confess I was a bit disheartened by this program. I believe that all of the guest raise very valid points (debt, types of education, etc), but I feel that they almost discouraged perusing a university degree. I strongly believe that there are people enrolled in a 4 year program that should not be there, and there are degree programs that are "generic" for students who don't know what they really want to study. However, I feel it can be a great place for personal and professional growth as well as networking. For example, I received an undergraduate degree in Biology, but I have used knowledge gained from classes in French, Spanish, Ethics, Chemistry, Biochemistry, Literature, History, and Psychology, to name a few in my professional (biological science related) career. I agree, there is a danger in stating that a 4 year degree is the be all end all of career advancement, but there is an even greater danger in devaluing how well rounded, educated people can influence the community.
I do want to add, that if we are going to use community colleges as an option, the standards need to be increased. I took a class at a community college, and there were definitely lower expectations placed on our learning benchmarks than at the larger university right down the street.
What bothered me most about this show was the failure to account for context. The data show that unemployment rates for those attending 4-year universities or colleges (versus a 2 year community college) are still the lowest among all groups hover around 4.5%, near "full employment" assumptions). Those with no college still are most at risk. These data do not explain everything, but they do throw a wrench into the argument that colleges are becoming more irrelevant where securing long-term employment is concerned.
I would advise Dianne's producers to find actual researchers of educational trends for shows like this instead of using gadflies (the venture capitalist) or educational consulting groups. The discussion became too far-flung and guests were talking way past each other!
本报榆林讯(记者 张有效 通信员 胡世君) 租下农家院落，偷挖110米隧道，从输油管线偷盗原油125吨，9名被告人10月25日被定边县国民法院分辨判处14年至3年不等的有期徒刑，并处分金1万元至5万元。 2008年11月，王宏兴、秦国庆伙同王华东(批捕在逃)、王文亮(批捕在逃)等人预谋盗窃长庆油田输油管线的原油,斗破苍穹。依照分工，王华东将凑近输油管线的一民宅及院落租下，王华东、王文亮雇用被告人杨满财等人从其租赁的民房向长庆输油三处惠靖管线方向挖了110米的地道后找到输油管线，被告人王宏兴用钻机等工具将管线翻开眼孔后装置上卡子跟阀门，而后用钢管从阀门处衔接到地道口外，共盗窃原油125吨(价值32.48万元)，所盗出的原油由被告人秦国庆接洽吴岳山(批捕在逃)等人出卖，所得赃款按股均匀调配。 2009年11月，因租赁屋宇到期，由朱继明露面另行租赁了一民宅及院落，王华东、王文亮雇用杨满财等人将本来应用的钢管拆除，在原地道基本上，将钢管引到新租的民宅，将原油放入李凤武等人当时挖好的土坑内，在放油进程中，因油管决裂原油泄露被察觉。
It was sad that the value of lifelong learning and having an educated populace was hardly mentioned. The tone was one of making fun of taking philosophy,etc., apparently because it didn't yield jobs. As indicated in Nicolas Carr's book The Shallows: What the Internet is Doing to our Brains, we are more efficient processors of information but less creative producers of wisdom. I draw on my required course "History of Western Civilization" nearly every day, though I was never a history teacher. I shudder to think what methods political candidates can use for convincing narrowly educated people who lack critical thinking skills! Scary!
Hopefully, Diane will counter the message in this show and I'd be happy to be part of the discussion for that next treatment!
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亚心网讯(记者 华容)善意把房子借给本地来的朋友寓居，没想到朋友却变卖了房中所有的电器跟家具。5月4日，新疆阿克苏市民何先生碰到了这么一件让人恼火的事件。 何先生在阿克苏市六三六居民点有一套平房，今年春天，何先生一家搬进新买的楼房后，房子就空了下来。4月初，何先生的一位朋友从乌鲁木齐打电话给何先生，称自己想来阿克苏做生意，要何先生帮忙给自己在阿克苏租一套屋子。这个朋友是今年春节前何先生回陕西老家时在路上结识的，此人称自己在乌鲁木齐做生意。 热忱的何先生接到朋友打来的电话，立即表现，自己的平房能够免费借给朋友住，而且房子里家具电器一应俱全，住起来很便利。 过了几天，那位朋友就带着妻子来到了阿克苏市，住进了何先生的房子。几天前,斗破苍穹，何先生以前的老街坊打电话告知何先生，说有多少个人把何先生平房里的家具电器全体搬走了。何先生匆忙赶去一看，果然已经人去房空，家具电器都不见了。何先生给那位朋友打电话，成果基本接洽不上，这让他非常恼火。 碍于昔日情面，何先生至今未报警，他说，他要等那位友人给本人一个回答。 微博推举 | 本日微博热门（编纂：SN047）
I'm 33 y/o and dropped out of high school at the age of 15 precisely because of the lack of transferrable skills or clear linkages to job market skills. A caller talked about the economic feasibility and gains of just going to work over the summer to get the skills they need.
As the son of a high school teacher, it was clear to me at a young age that I was better off having fun and getting paid to work for three years than stay in school.
Now at age 33, I've gone back to school with the business/work skills and communication and applicability knowledge to write grants and win scholarships in a way that academics recognize my strengths and choose to work with me.
I now have a degree in Math (BS), Biostatistics (MS), Epidemiology (MS) International Environmental Law (MLS) and am pursuing a PhD in Renewable Energy Ecology funded by the National Science Foundation.
Its possible the public schools did a 'great' job to the point that I only needed it til the age of 15... but I don't think it did anything but scare me enough to leave.