Is College Right for Everyone
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-05-16/college-right-everyone
President Obama has called on every American to receive at least one year of higher education or vocational training by 2020. For most young people, that means heading to campus in the pursuit of a college degree. But for a small, influential group of educators and economists, pushing the college experience is wrong. A recent report from Harvard backs them up. It found that only one-third of future jobs will need a bachelor’s degree. The report’s researchers said it’s time to offer stronger alternatives. The debate over the value of a college degree is not new, but the current economic crisis has renewed discussions. Diane and her guests re-examine the “college for all” movement.
Guests
Claudia Dreifus
co-author of "Higher Education?: How Colleges Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids and What We Can Do About It"; adjunct associate professor at Columbia University; science writer for The New York Times.
Jeffrey Selingo
editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education.
James Altucher
New York-based venture capitalist, and the author of the new book “How To Be the Luckiest Person Alive,” which includes the chapter: “8 Alternatives to College."
Nina Marks
president of Collegiate Directions Inc.; principal of Marks Education.
Jan Bray
executive director of the Association for Career and Technical Education (ACTE).
Program Highlights
Is College Worth the Expense?
A growing group of educators and economists say paying increasingly high rates for college and racking up thousands of dollars of debt does students a disservice - especially in a down economy, when even having a four-year degree from a prestigious university can't help boost graduates' job prospects the way it might have in the past.
"We're basically graduating a generation of indentured servants. I think this is the downfall of the American dream," said New York-based venture capitalist and author James Altucher.
Jeffrey Selingo, editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education, said he thinks that there has been too much emphasis on the 4-year B.A. program, when many students don't stop to consider certificate programs, 2-year programs, and other alternatives to the more traditional (and, arguably, expensive) college path.
Student Options as Costs Skyrocket
"When I left high school in 1954, less than half of our graduating class went to college, and yet them seem to have done fairly well," Diane said. "What's the difference between back then and now?"
Altucher said that because a lot of employees in hiring positions are college-educated, they tend to trust prospective employees who are also college-educated. Back in the 1950s, Altucher said, there seemed to be greater opportunity for career success among those who were not college-educated, especially if they were "achievement-oriented."
"The big deal is to focus on some sort of credential," Selingo argued. "The fact is that a high-school diploma doesn't cut it in this day and age. The types of jobs going to be created within the next 50 years - we have no idea what they're going to be," he said.
Do Degrees Translate Into Jobs?
"When I left high school in 1954, less than half of our graduating class went to college, and yet them seem to have done fairly well," Diane said. "What's the difference between back then and now?"
Altucher said that because a lot of employees in hiring positions are college-educated, they tend to trust prospective employees who are also college-educated. Back in the 1950s, Altucher said, there seemed to be greater opportunity for career success among those who were not college-educated, especially if they were "achievement-oriented."
"The big deal is to focus on some sort of credential," Selingo argued. "The fact is that a high-school diploma doesn't cut it in this day and age. The types of jobs going to be created within the next 50 years - we have no idea what they're going to be," he said.
Comments
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What happened to going to a four year college to become a well rounded person and to learn about your strengths and interests before deciding what career path to follow? Trade schools right out of high school are fine for those who know exactly what they're good at and want to do, but many kids need those four years to take electives on many subjects to figure out who they are and what they should do.
I agree the cost of college needs to be reined in; however, I don't think this means going to college is not worth it or a bad idea. Take a look at the nursing profession...there are many different ways to become an RN (2 year, 3 year, and 4 year (BSN) programs). Research has shown, however, that having a 4 year degree matters...mortality rates among patients are lower when more nurses in a hospital have a BSN (vs. a 2 or 3 year degree). College teaches critical thinking...a vital skill in today's complex environments.
The swindle (most apparent with for-profit schools, but by no means absent from the nonprofit system) is the willingness to admit any student with a pulse, so long as he or she pays tuition.
As a working adult returning to school, I've had countless classmates who were functionally illiterate or who plagiarized every assignment. It is infuriating to think that my own degree will be worth no more than the ones handed out to these people.
As someone who has a B.A. in Visual Arts, I feel as though my undergraduate education was heavily focussed on how to create art and minimally focusses on how to secure a job afterwards. Universities have a responsibility to educate its students beyond the subject matter into networking skills and making connections with employers. I am now a graduate student in an MBA program that I chose partially based on the fact that it has a good record of career development and enables the student to secure her desired job. Why does it seem to be the case that institutions only focus on the specific subject matter and not how to apply that subject matter to the real world? There is a definite disconnect between academia and a real career.
Lack of respect for non-college jobs
In the mid-1970s, Name That Tune had a guest who was a garbage man. This 'garbage' man had great knowledge of classical music and operas, etc. This was quite a surprise to the host who assumed (as did my mother), that a garbage man couldn't possibly know anything about classical music...he's JUST a garbage man. As a young child, it was a wonderful impression on me that a job need not limit someone's pursuit of his interests, as well as that we should respect all professions to support our communities.
Annette Anderson
Arlington, TX
Mr Accountant...consider that teaching is a very low priority for most univeristies (publishing, research, grantsmanship, athletics are all more important - and reflected in the comments of the panel as well as much research about higher education).
Interesting that your final comments are a justification for your wife to "massage" her grades so that she gets better pay. Mmmmm.. this seems to be a very disturbing ethical situation. Incentive to give low grades? Shouldn't students be earning grades? Shouldn't there be a logic between the work accomplished in a course and the evaluation of that performance? Your implication that your wife "gives" grades implies that she is marketing her grade evaluation in order to merely be better paid.
How can that be a supportable position?
I realize that the economic cost of college is high and an unfair burden on average families. But as a college professor in the humanities, I do not believe that college's sole role is to secure a job for each student. The point of going to college is to gain an education about the world you were born into, to learn to expand your view into a multi-dimensional global perspective, and to create informed, responsible, and empathetic citizens of the world. This past year I encountered students in my classes who had no idea what the Holocaust was. The majority of my incoming students also feel that voting is irrelevant, that the feminist movement was a group of women who hated men, and that Muslims are by nature and practice, a violent people. Our high schools are failing to prepare students for life in the world--college is a necessary foundation in forming a good people and also, just to add, an idea supported and propagated by many of our great American leaders and thinkers including Thomas Jefferson, Ralph Waldo Emerson, and even the Puritans.
Diane -
A couple of things get in the way of our educational process:
capitalism and politics
Our capitalists, most notably Bill Gates, keep screaming about technical worker shortages and Congress keeps giving them cheap foreign labor in the form of H-1B nonimmigrant visas.
However, a study done by the Urban Institute indicates that our colleges /are/ turning out STEM graduates at an annual rate of 300,000 - so there is no shortage of potential workers, only cheap ones...
Also, our institutions of higher education are exempt from the H-1B visa caps, so there is a disincentive tor them to hire Americans. Furthermore, it is my belief that they also favor foreign students over Americans, since the foreign students must pay higher out-of-state tuition.
We need to take care of American students and workers first!
Steve Landess
Austin, Texas
Tamar Lewin published a post in The New York Times with the title "Average College Debt Rose to $24,000 in 2009" online Oct. 21, 2010. A University of Virginia graduate owes on average precisely that amount (http://brainmindinst.blogspot.com/2010/07/value-of-education-economicall...). UVa is public.
If 40 percent of college graduates were debt-free as one of the discussants claimed earlier, the rest must owe a lot more!
I am 50 years old Black male with an MBA. I want to go back to get a phd, and work in public education, but I find it very difficult to find a public program that is good for working people. 4 to 5 years to complete a program is difficult.
I have a LOT to say about higher education, but I will limit my comment to just one topic:
I do not see it as appropriate to enroll almost everyone in 4 year colleges, especially right out of high school. I would even go so far as to say that almost no one should go directly to a 4-year college right out of high school.
Education past high school is necessary but it should come from a variety of sources. These can include: two-year degrees, trades training, military training, a year or two of public service, on-the-job training in any field, or even just working a routine job to clarify goals.
We need smart and well-trained electricians, mechanics, plumbers, carpenters, roofers, construction builders of all sorts, repair people, child care workers, practical nurses, office workers, drivers, painters, etc. All useful occupations deserve the same respect. Society needs all workers to be good at their job.
We really need to stop making a 4-year college degree the main gauge of success.
Two things:
1. College is a product like any other. As a puchasee you are responsible for knowing your options, projected long-term value and opportunity cost. If you know these things then it is up to you to decide whether you feel what you are buying is worth it - and that worth need not always be in dollars. When I started vet school in 2004 the opportunity cost was a projected ~$1 million.
2. In the current economy, though it my be unfair to the trade/technical schools, you need to have a minimum of a bachelor's degree. Positions that historically have never required 4 year degrees now do, just to pear down the massive pile of applicants that HR departments face. Similar upscaling is seen at all levels. PhD candidates who used to be able to sign employment contracts without having graduated now find employers are only interested in people who have their degree in hand and 5 years experience.
As a university professor, I absolutely agree that not everyone should go to college or belongs in college, and I also agree that tuition at private institutions has gotten ridiculously high (I certainly could never afford now to attend either my alma mater or the university where I currently teach). At the same time, I am disturbed by the focus I am hearing particularly from one of the guests that the whole purpose of higher education is vocational. This attitude is even permeating academia itself. A liberal arts education -- including required courses in philosophy for computer sicence majors and engineers -- teaches a person to think critically: to weigh arguments and make decisions based on broader contexts, ethical issues, long-term consequences, etc. This is invaluable not only in any possible career but also is desperately needed by this country to have a citizenry that votes and supports public policies based on facts and reason rather than emotion and illogic.
P.S. Contrary to what another guest mentioned earlier, it is precisely the middle class that is suffering most from student loan debt. Students from truly poor families qualify for need-based scholarships and those who are wealthy can afford the tuition. Families making over $100,000 a year are not middle class: they are in the top 10% of the population. The real middle class is making about $40,000 a year.
I feel there are more than a third of students who waste their college education by attending with no goals so they graduate with the wrong major and still don't know what career to pursue at graduation. At the traditional college age most students don't know who they are let alone what they want to prepare for as a career. Yet they are told they should go to college where they learn to develop bad habits and realize the value of college too late taking jobs they aren't happy in and amasssing too much debt. I currently have 2 masters degrees that allow me to teach Life Career planning at the college level. Here I teach students to figure out what they want to be when they grow up and find that most returning students get the most out of the course as opposed to the traditional student right out of high school. I think its sad that students squander the opportunity college can be by not really wanting to be there and using college as a excuse to put off the real world. Courses like this should be included through out education in middle and high school so that by the time they get to college they have goals in mind and the motivation to achieve those goals. Sarah in Oviedo FL
I feel there are more than a third of students who waste their college education by attending with no goals so they graduate with the wrong major and still don't know what career to pursue at graduation. At the traditional college age most students don't know who they are let alone what they want to prepare for as a career. Yet they are told they should go to college where they learn to develop bad habits and realize the value of college too late taking jobs they aren't happy in and amasssing too much debt. I currently have 2 masters degrees that allow me to teach Life Career planning at the college level. Here I teach students to figure out what they want to be when they grow up and find that most returning students get the most out of the course as opposed to the traditional student right out of high school. I think its sad that students squander the opportunity college can be by not really wanting to be there and using college as a excuse to put off the real world. Courses like this should be included through out education in middle and high school so that by the time they get to college they have goals in mind and the motivation to achieve those goals. Sarah in Oviedo FL
I am a Humanities Instructor at an elite public school -- our student body is made up of the top 4% of academic achievers in North Carolina, but most are from modest or middle class backgrounds. When it comes to deciding whether to go a school in the UNC system or try for an Ivy League, there is another factor for them to consider; If they can figure out how to pay the high price of Ivies upfront, they will not necessarily get any better education (the faculty in the UNC system are terrific) but they will gain valuable connections. The Ivies are where students get the chance to join the ruling class - they will meet rich, powerful people and they will become friends with them. and that (yes, this is a cynical reality) will benefit them greatly in their professional careers. So, I wonder how much the statistics that show college graduates earning more than those who are not has to do with connections made rather than knowledge and skills gained?
I'm an applied physics professor at a very affordable state university. (Weber State University, Ogden, UT). One of the biggest problems that state universities face that cause the tuition to rise faster than inflation is the nationwide trend for legislators to cut state funding. It is expensive to run a university and that could likely be made a bit more efficient, but you cannot expect to match inflation when public support is at best flat but more likely dropping by at least a few percent per year.
John
No one has talked about the military option.
My husband and I both went in the military out of highschool wnet to college later. We are both very successful in our fields.
The pressure is incredible on parents for their kids to go to college.
Our son was in gifted programs, skipped a grade but he was not ready. we had a 529 account to pay but we told him he was not ready.
he has been in the air force 5 years. He supervises 22 people, works on It networks. He has paid his way for 5 years. He has loearned an increradible amount about living. He has written us several cards thanking us on how we raised him and this descision,
I think that the called who pointed out issues regarding influence peddling was too quickly dismissed, I know at least of one case of a person who got admitted to a Liberal Arts Department of a prestigious state university because he was able to put hgis contacts into use.
For the most part I have found this discussionfragmentary and full of gaps. The panelists come again and again to their leitmotif. Many of the short comings that afflict colleges today are but the reflection of the cultural crisis that plagues society. So far, I haven't heard that liberal education it is a value in itself. A world in which electricians will be able to appreaciate Plato will be a better world that the world in which we live today.
I think that the called who pointed out issues regarding influence peddling was too quickly dismissed, I know at least of one case of a person who got admitted to a Liberal Arts Department of a prestigious state university because he was able to put hgis contacts into use.
For the most part I have found this discussionfragmentary and full of gaps. The panelists come again and again to their leitmotif. Many of the short comings that afflict colleges today are but the reflection of the cultural crisis that plagues society. So far, I haven't heard that liberal education it is a value in itself. A world in which electricians will be able to appreaciate Plato will be a better world that the world in which we live today.
I was fortunate enough to have my tuition fully paid to a reputable 4-year university in Washington, DC. I had been successful at my public high school, maintaining a 4.1 GPA (weighted with AP courses), leading several organizations and receiving many honors and awards. 4-year was the next step. Grad school after that. I wanted to spend my whole life learning.
It was obviously not for me. After 3 semesters I looked back at what I had learned, and it was entirely repeated lessons from high school and things I could have inferred reading the newspaper. Working in restaurants in my spare time, I realized that's where I found my passion. I dropped out of the university and started working over time as often as possible. I have learned every angle of the service industry, and I am using those lessons and the remainder of my college fund to start my own business.
The journey to become a restaurant owner has been far more fulfilling than attending a prestigious university. I feel regret that many of my peers were launched into debt while wasting their time being pressured into education that will not help them advance their passions.
Not-for-profit universities is a complete misnomer. Look at administrator salaries, pensions and ivory tower infrastructure investments to see where the money goes. These universities should be held to the same gainful employment/loan default restrictions that apply to for-profit.
For-profit universities take essentially everybody, often students from very low income families. No doubt there are plenty of graduation mills of little value, but they are the exception.
All universities should be subject to the same rules and regulations if they take public dollars either through federal student loan programs or are otherwise taxpayer funded.
Private universities, as long as they dont' benefit from tax dollars, can do what they want and let the buyer beware.
I enjoyed the show. It would be nice to be more Washington Metropolitan specific, including directors/students from local vocational programs. For example -- in Montgomery County public schools is the Thomas Edison HS Program which graduates IT, Car Technicians and construction students who get jobs. Also - Montgomery College has a 2 year tech college in Rockville.
Please bring these people on.
I totally support the panelists.
The answer is no we do not all need College educations. I will try to show why in as few words as possible. MILITARY--EDUCATION--EMPLOYMENT
A young MAN (women were not in the picture at that time) was to graduate High School at age 17-18, be drafted to the military 2 yrs. (or duration of conflect plus 6 months), then go to college or a technical school plus an apprenticeship program. If all these years are added they will equal 25 years of age. Why 25 years of age, he was more mature, starting a family and needed a job for food, clothing, housing, and ect. Why did the colleges and technical school plus the employers jump in on the act. In a post war economy GREED took over. It was good for everyone -- insurance companies had a 25 year old employ, who, was apt to have accidents. Education institutions could cut back on programs. An example: Engineering courses cut shop classes to save money. 30 years later Engineering graduates can not find enployment because they do not have those shop classes and not work experience. More to say but not enough space. Paul W. Becker 573-759-6621
There are many excellent comments here that touch on a lot of important issues. One problem that has not been addressed in much detail is the students themselves. Not counting the ivy league universities, many students arrive with abysmal skills. There are numerous causes for this.
1. Parents don't encourage their kids to work hard and value learning.
2. The *average* quality of primary school teachers is dropping. (Which is surely frustrating to the legions of excellent and dedicated primary teachers, I know, I've talked to them.) This is because teaching is an undervalued career. Look what just happened in the Midwest with legislators bashing teachers as being greedy. Many excellent teachers wash out in their first few years because of the lack of support (mental and monetary) and move on to jobs that are more valued by current society.
3. Our incoming students DO NOT READ. I've asked them. Most have not read more than a single novel (unless required) in the last five years. How can you expect to learn if you don't read?
The result of all these is that students entering the university have very poor skills and many of them have to take remedial courses in math, English, etc. just to get to the bottom level of acceptable performance.
Our nation is in trouble.
I went to a community college, then to California Polytechnic State University both in California, and on to the University of Wisconsin to obtain a Ph.D. I am in the "boomer" cohort and knew the system "as it was" pretty well 25 years ago, but recently have learned that things have drastically changed since I've been out working.
I recently spent several years visiting Universities looking for opportunities to in-license technologies for my company's development. I was astounded and disappointed at how our higher education system has developed these past 30 years. The costs are ridiculous - supply and demand only partially explains the high costs. Many of our Universities are on steroids in terms of building new and elaborate facilities.
Fixed costs require more money - if you cannot get it from the tax payer directly, you get it from them when their children attend your university. One University I visited for two days had a new chemistry, biology, IT, and forest products buildings, and a new business school and law school were under construction - and all of this was built within a five-year timespan!! They add these fixed costs then fill them with professors who, once they obtain tenure, become fixed costs also. The management at this particular University complained repeatedly that the tax payer was not keeping up!! I pointed out that the tax payer has not received 10-12% annual pay increases over the past 30 years that would enable them to keep up with their equivalent spending. Add the fact that easy money has been made available for students in the form of loans, then game becomes apparent. Oh - and as to that in-licensing venture - it was overall a miserable failure - industry typically does not want to in-license basic research projects that make up 90+% of what our major universities spend their time doing.
Universities did not evolve as places for people to train for jobs. Training and technical schools were created for that. Universities were created for a "liberal education," to provide a place for people to engage in learning the humanities, social sciences, natural sciences, to learn to learn, as one panelist said today, and to follow their passion for learning and discovery. To forget this when we discuss university education is unproductive. Historically, universities were for the elite. The USA did a great thing by showing that they could be for everyone with the capacity to participate, and this was a wonderful evolution. We have now lost confidence in our own beliefs.
What kind of country do we want? What kind of citizens do we want? The mathematicians and physics and IT leaders in schools abroad are not just making it because they have superior curriculum. I would suggest they have better environments for young people to be young people. We want our young people to hurry up and be old people so they can "get out of the way" and be productive.
Discoveries take passion and creativity. PAssion and creativity are fed by the arts as much as by technical learning. Brilliance needs to be cultivated in a rich garden. We should not, in my opinion, be discussing university education from an "either/or" point of view.
Yes, more technical schools are an important part of the solution. But, in my thinking, the goal is to have satisfied, happy citizens. Such people lead productive lives, and are less likely to become alcoholics, drug addicts, husband demeanors and wife and children beaters. They participate more in democracy. Our goal should be to have a robust, healthy democracy where primary needs are met. Satisfaction in life comes from quality, not quantity. We will always be dissatisfied as long as everything we talk about, from family to funeral, is about money. Let's not confuse the means with the end purpose.
There is nothing shameful about being smart, intellectual, or interested in spending your life trying to solve or answer some problem or another. Government should help pay the cost of education. Help, but not cover fully. The other thing is that the panelists were not realistic about the skill sets most kids come to college with (very low). However, young people have a RIGHT TO BE YOUNG AND ACT THEIR AGE. They deserve the time to explore and make up their minds. This is not waste - it is investment into another generation of more productive people, in the end.
What we need most to protect our country is to assure that in our educational system, people learn how to THINK CRITICALLY and creatively. The patriotic thing to do is to protect and invest in our youth - they are our future. As someone said during the program, good personal skills, curiosity and the willingness, even excitement, to learn are the most critical factors in career success. They are also important factors in personal success.
About Study Abroad - it is important because we are fairly isolated from the rest of the world. Seeing other countries is an important way to learn about one's era - as well as history - and this is not new. It is unfair and shallow thinking to call this "a fad" as one of the panelists said. Unfortunately, even after high school most American youth don't know the world map, major cities, or location of oceans. One reason is the message somehow is communicated to them that this is not important information. Is that good for us as a country?
Re: Dan Berkowitz' comment: There is NOT a staggering gap between American and Canadian labor force needs because "some post-secondary education" is not the same as "a Bachelors degree." Every single one of the four-year degree holders has "some post-secondary" so think of it as a bar chart showing 30% high school or below, 40% some post-sec, and 30% BA. Then draw a bracket showing that post-sec and BA are both education past high school.
"Some post-secondary education" can include short, moderate, or long-term on-the-job training, apprenticeships, military training, certificates, and associate's degrees. Yes, 70% of the workforce needs that---and 30% goes onward for a four-year degree or more. It's a classic bell curve. The ones I worry about are at the tail end of the western slope who have dropped out and don't have a diploma or GED. They are in for a world of trouble when it comes to finding unskilled jobs these days.
College and/or post-secondary is an afterthought to the educational issues facing our youth. In many American schools a child's journey destines him or her to become a square peg which gets hammered into the round hole of our business world. America was a place a man could be anything. Now, if he doesn't have a college degree in his field, he can't be anything. Our youth are being cheated from the first day of school. What difference can college make?