Is College Right for Everyone
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-05-16/college-right-everyone
President Obama has called on every American to receive at least one year of higher education or vocational training by 2020. For most young people, that means heading to campus in the pursuit of a college degree. But for a small, influential group of educators and economists, pushing the college experience is wrong. A recent report from Harvard backs them up. It found that only one-third of future jobs will need a bachelor’s degree. The report’s researchers said it’s time to offer stronger alternatives. The debate over the value of a college degree is not new, but the current economic crisis has renewed discussions. Diane and her guests re-examine the “college for all” movement.
Guests
Claudia Dreifus
co-author of "Higher Education?: How Colleges Are Wasting Our Money and Failing Our Kids and What We Can Do About It"; adjunct associate professor at Columbia University; science writer for The New York Times.
Jeffrey Selingo
editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education.
James Altucher
New York-based venture capitalist, and the author of the new book “How To Be the Luckiest Person Alive,” which includes the chapter: “8 Alternatives to College."
Nina Marks
president of Collegiate Directions Inc.; principal of Marks Education.
Jan Bray
executive director of the Association for Career and Technical Education (ACTE).
Program Highlights
Is College Worth the Expense?
A growing group of educators and economists say paying increasingly high rates for college and racking up thousands of dollars of debt does students a disservice - especially in a down economy, when even having a four-year degree from a prestigious university can't help boost graduates' job prospects the way it might have in the past.
"We're basically graduating a generation of indentured servants. I think this is the downfall of the American dream," said New York-based venture capitalist and author James Altucher.
Jeffrey Selingo, editor of The Chronicle of Higher Education, said he thinks that there has been too much emphasis on the 4-year B.A. program, when many students don't stop to consider certificate programs, 2-year programs, and other alternatives to the more traditional (and, arguably, expensive) college path.
Student Options as Costs Skyrocket
"When I left high school in 1954, less than half of our graduating class went to college, and yet them seem to have done fairly well," Diane said. "What's the difference between back then and now?"
Altucher said that because a lot of employees in hiring positions are college-educated, they tend to trust prospective employees who are also college-educated. Back in the 1950s, Altucher said, there seemed to be greater opportunity for career success among those who were not college-educated, especially if they were "achievement-oriented."
"The big deal is to focus on some sort of credential," Selingo argued. "The fact is that a high-school diploma doesn't cut it in this day and age. The types of jobs going to be created within the next 50 years - we have no idea what they're going to be," he said.
Do Degrees Translate Into Jobs?
"When I left high school in 1954, less than half of our graduating class went to college, and yet them seem to have done fairly well," Diane said. "What's the difference between back then and now?"
Altucher said that because a lot of employees in hiring positions are college-educated, they tend to trust prospective employees who are also college-educated. Back in the 1950s, Altucher said, there seemed to be greater opportunity for career success among those who were not college-educated, especially if they were "achievement-oriented."
"The big deal is to focus on some sort of credential," Selingo argued. "The fact is that a high-school diploma doesn't cut it in this day and age. The types of jobs going to be created within the next 50 years - we have no idea what they're going to be," he said.
Comments
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In order to accommodate students who in the past wouldn't have even been accepted into college, encouraging almost everyone to go to college LOWERS the standards. How can it not?
I'm not saying this applies to every institute of higher learning, or to every course of study, but in some fields such as teaching, for example, it seems to apply. Many teachers in our elementary and high schools have an appalling lack of proficiency. Some can't even spell correctly.
I am very surprised by the assertion that in the United States only one third of future jobs will require a Bachelors Degree.
In Canada the studies show that up to 70% of jobs will require some form of post secondary education.
The breadth of the projected difference is staggering. Does this mean that young American's should anticipate more low value, low paying jobs than young Canadians?
The prudent path to take is keeping your student loan debt as low as possible so that your career choices remain unburdened by high monthly payments. Good public schools provide most bang for the buck.
Read more here:
http://brainmindinst.blogspot.com/2010/07/value-of-education-economicall...
What is wrong with government "of" the people, "for" the people, and "by" the media? A media so deft as to control thoughts and actions of live human, not humane puppets. Individual free will is not tempered by education, knowledge, and personal experience. The free will of mindfully unconscious persons without the authentic education experience is the path to a lifeless earth.
Often times, education is WASTED on the young. Too often, young people insist on seeking or doing the absolute bare minimum of work/investigation in order to receive their degree. Is there any other product or service that we consume in this manner? I know that it is difficult to go back to school, but for many 18 year olds, what life experience to they have to assess what career path might suit them when they are likely to invest $ 100K + in a 4 year degree?
Eric from Rocky Mount Va
Simply put, America is fostering a third world mentality of burger flippers and are winning the race towards the bottom.
Our problem is not with education , it's with the scammers running the college wheels to the point of diminishing returns.
The College Mill in America is nothing but a scam.
We are doomed...
It seems automatic to go to college no matter what your field is. I graduated with a BFA in painting at a liberal arts school, and it did not in any way offer a path to making a living in the art field, outside of teaching. Most co-graduates felt the same way, and they would be happy to sell that degree right back. Most are not working in the field. I would have been FAR better off taking a few workshops and learning actual skills from artists I admired, and saved a great deal of money and time to boot.
The question is not whether "Is college for everyone" but rather, "Do the benefits of college justify the cost?"
It is generally understood that an abundance of easy money played a pivotal role in the creation of the housing bubble. Low interest federally-backed loans and introductory teaser rates from banks, brought more and more buyers into the market and pushed home prices through the roof. Meanwhile an unflagging faith in the "value" of homes, both as an investment as a component of the American Dream, caused us never to question the skyrocketing prices until the bubble burst.
Does your panel feel that the same thing is happening in education? What, if any, role do Federally-backed student loans, an endless array of programs to push young Americans into college, and our absolute, seldom scrutinized, belief in the the value of college play in the skyrocketing tuition costs that seem to be making it harder and harder for the benefits of college to justify the expense?
I have never had a job, some of which paid quite well, that could not be done without a college education. However, I have never had a job that did not have hiring criteria, and often promotions, based on whether or not someone has a college education. There seems to be a disconnect between an academic discussion of the necessity of a college education versus the reality of businesses demanding an applicant have a college education.
High paying jobs are base on pay rates set by contracts. If u don't have a college degree. U limit ur ceiling of pay.
Education is for everyone- we need to be an educated nation to compete in a global economy. We can't afford to be ignorant any more than we can afford more debt. Look at the engineering field and we are lagging in educated graduates that stay here to work. We devalue vocational schools and skill sets that are needed without the traditional bachelor's degree. How can we put more cultural value on these? How does the government's new takeover of the school loans affect approval for such debt on a larger scale? I will say that as a returning student at age 36 with five children, I am grateful for community colleges and pell grants. However, I do not expect to be able to pay for my oldest son's college. He is fifteen and I am enrolling him in a high school that emphasizes graduating with an associates degree which qualifies him for a statewide scholarship to pay for his remaining two years in Utah.
Does anyone remember the saying " Follow your bliss "? That is the starting point for education that brings satisfaction and growth.
What most children and young adults need is encouragement and acceptance of their style of learning. The learning environment is everything.
Also, a recent book studied the "success" of twins separated at birth.
The "education" seemed to have very little to do with their level of achievement.
Let's get real about education and let children and young adults tell US what they "yearn" to discover.
I remember a bumper sticker in the late 80s - that bragged about "my child is on the honor role". I wrote a letter to the college I was attending and told them, it made me "vomit" - how about "my child is interested in ..."
A liberal arts college education is needed to succeed in today's labor market. It gives one the analytic and communication skills that allow one to adapt to the rapidly changing skills required in today's world. Your guest who attended Cornell was able to learn the computer programming needed in his job because he went to Cornell.
With the fast pace of change in job requirements, it is likely that industry will have to provide some to a lot of training for new hires. I believe that statistics show greater unemployment in those without college experience. And one other thing... while it is important to learn job skills in school, it is as important, to job performance and quality of life, that students learn life skills and be exposed to cultural (including the arts) and social learning. If this takes some college then so be it.
@monte: To which government program are you referring? The president making a suggestion is not tantamount to implementing a program. You seem to have nothing more than an axe to grind. It boggles the mind any member of our country, a nation which is falling well behind other industrialized countries around the world in academic performance, particularly in math and science, would object to a government official urging citizens to seek higher education, whether that be through a traditional 4-year college or vocational training. Furthermore, for someone so concerned with 'creating jobs' and the prosperity of this country, how you fail to grasp the corollary between an educated populous and more dynamic workforce is lost on me. When jobs are created, you want those trained and prepared to perform to fill those positions. Obama's job is not limited to one single activity nor should his vision be narrowly fixed on only the present. Absolutely this recession needs to be corrected but we need to maximize the abilities of our country's citizens, as well. This was true well before the economic downturn and it seems all the more important now as we struggle to find a way to return to a more stable, sustainable, and accountable state. Finally, enough with labeling things as 'liberal,' as if conservative ideals are any more sound. Quite frankly, reliance on such rhetoric suggests a very biased, limited grasp on the issues at hand. Try for once to see past party lines.
I write about this often on manufacturing blogs - we've become a nation that dismisses the value of 'the trades'. Everyone lauds the architect but few laud the people who actually build the building.
If those jobs were held in higher esteem (and training for those jobs was broadened to include more critical thinking) we would be way better off. IT is great but we can't all be programmers - somebody actually has to BUILD the computers (or at least the machines that build the computers).
As a boomer, I enjoyed the classic 'college experience' but that was at a time when an indifferent liberal arts education could still land you a job. Applied correctly, higher education can be of benefit to everyone but it shouldn't be the only laudable goal.
Post-secondary education includes any kind of training after high school, such as the various medical technician certifications.
A good plumber can earn as much or more than a typical lawyer or medical doctor.
There are a lot of skilled trades in which a young person can excel and write his own ticket anywhere in the country.
How many of you baccalaureates would be reduced to flipping burgers if you had to look outside of a few coastal enclaves such as Washington or Seattle?
You are commenting on students, but the numbers going back to school are those who have been out of work and are older. The unemployment number for those over 40 has been much higher than 10%.
The rush to go back to school is really being pushed by the Employer. They are looking for Education as they do not value Experience.
As an example, a Corporate Controller used to only require a 4 year degree. Recent see job postings for similiar positions are not only looking for Accounting degrees, but now you must have a CPA and if possible also a MBA. I have seen these requirements for for even lesser accounting jobs.
We need to respect and appreciate what experience brings to the table. This is another detriment of our Youth culture.
Also, they need to bring back corporate training. Students are not learning what they need to actually do the work necessary in college. They come in to jobs puffed up with no "common sense" to do the job.
Why is it that a bachelor's degree is required for even the lowest level government jobs? Would the US Government not benefit from having personnel with focused training than the arbitrary 4-year degree? And - has the government's requirement of having a bachelor's degree for almost all of its jobs helped to exasserbate the problem of forcing young people into the "college system".
While the line has been blured, we must keep in mind the difference between education and training. While students need salable skills in order to work, the benefit over the course of their lives of a solid liberal arts education cannot be over emphasized. Having said that, however, not everyone is capable or wants to put in the time to get a broad-based education. My fear is, as exemplified by the university at which I worked for nearly 20 years, that colleges are in danger of becoming little more than white collar trade schools, thus reinforcing the increasingly common perception that a college degree isn't worth the effort or expense.
There will always be a need for skilled workers but there will also always be a need for those with the broad-based perspective and critical thinking skills gained through a four-year college program. A college degree while impractical for some, is never wasted and in fact necessary if we are to have and enlightned society.
We must remember that people graduating from high school are ostensibly adults and are responsible for their future, whether it be going to college and taking out loans or working part-time while in school or doing something else. There is nothing wrong with student debt because the financial opportunities available for those with a college degree far outweigh debt. I went to both a community college and a state university. I paid for most of it myself and did not burden my parents with debt. 10 years after graduating with a Master degree, I still have half my student loans to pay for, but it is because the interest rate is low so I choose to make payments. The message you are sending that you shouldn't go to school because of accumulating debt is ignorant.
Almost fifty years since college failed me.
Good to hear these arguments.
Learned a lot about how I was expected to be in a short time and saved time and money setting my own course. Opportunity is everywhere and formal education is but one way.
I'd really like to hear about the dichotomy of universities wanting higher graduation rates and their desire to bring in as much money as possible when talking about the VALUE of education.
As an employer in a university town, I hire more graduates to wait tables who are unequipped to do basic tasks such as math and cognitive skills such as remembering requests (ie 'Can I have more sauce?')
It is very scary the types of students we see graduating from a Big 12 university.
In difficult economic times, the focus becomes making a living. There are three elements to an educated population: 1. skills to earn a living, 2. knowledge to civilize and live in a true democracy, and 3 intellectual merit. We pay lip service to learning but do not truely fund education. I am dissappointed that we do not have a real educational policy at the national level. Where is the leadership to educate the whole person not just the skills. Yes, knowing PLATO is important and you are discounting the knowledge that goes beyond a limited work related skills.
the real problem is the fundamental shift in employment availability in this country. We have eliminated millions of very good manufacturing jobs that in the past allowed high school graduates or drop outs to live a very good life. Now those jobs are all in China because we basically don't make anything anymore. In addition we allow millions of illegal aliens to take other jobs and drive down the value of a working man's labor. That is why so many kids are scrambling to find a path to a comfortable life by going to higher education. The fact is that the wealthy business interests that control both government and industry do not want to pay college graduates well anymore than they want to pay dropouts well.
My wife is a professor at a big ten university.
As we see the incomes of the most successful people go up faster than average incomes, college tuition will continue to go up faster than inflation. To get good professors, pay has to be close to the business marketplace.
The comment that so many professors don't teach is correct. the other side of that coin is that they are doing research. the grants they receive not only pay their salaires but 50% or more of the grant goes to pay univesity overhead. Without that, college costs would be substantially more.
Finally, why are the eduction standars dropping? the same reason they are dropping in high schools. Parents put pressure on the administrations to give good grades. Given that pressure the faculty are pushed into giving high grades rather than pushing their students to learn. One third of my wife's evaluation for her pay increase, etc. comes from student evaluations. Given that, is there any incentive to give low grades?
Not only do we have "status" judgments about which jobs are appropriate, do not forget that in many of the countries that the panel is discussing you can have a non-college based (assuming this is also lower paying) job without ruining your life if you become ill because the health benefits are usually not paid by the employer.
This gives many people options that we have never had in the US since our ability to survive any health crisis (accidental or genetic) is largly based upon having a gov or white collar job that include health benefits (even though you pay in part for those benefits).
If we had a reasonable (vs the current system) of health care in the US (that doesn't beggar the average worker/family), people could have many options for work that could be very satisfying.
I agree with the one of you panelist that much of what is learned in school is not relevant to the work-life post-college. I have a BS in Computer Information systems and a Masters in Business. Much of what I learned in college was not applicable in my first jobs after graduation. (I started my career in Northern California in Silicon valley).
What college does teach a person is perseverance and persistence in setting up and achieving a long term goal. This is in many ways more valuable than the programming and business skills taught in college.
-Jeff
Bethesda, MD
The real question here is what is the quality of students coming out of high school. Many students I teach at my community college do not have the communication or writing skills to be able to get a good job without some help learning new skills. Also, community colleges are expected to catch students up on information they should have learned in high school with less and less money and resources. That is the real problem with education in this country.
Just a few comments and remarks:
First I am a community college instructor who is married to a plumber and also lives in Michigan!
Does every high school senior need to go to college? No, but they do need some sort of post-secondary education or training...call it whatever you want.
Is academia a drift, yes, especially at the 4 year universities and in some cases even at the community college level. When you community college presidents and board of trustee are approving the building of heated and elevated tennis courts over the expenditure of new microscopes for science classes something is really wrong.
But what is the real question? Why are students graduating from 4 year colleges and not finding meaning full employment? Does a college have to guarantee that a graduating student will get a good paying job? The answer lies in where the wealth of the nation lies. Follow the money trail. When you have the top 10% of the nation taking 90% of the pie, jobs being outsourced as we speak, large corporations and bank not paying a single cent in taxes, know we know where the problem is. You cannot support yourself and a family on a minimum wage jobs. Good technical, that is high paying jobs, have been outsourced. Construction is stalled leaving many highly paid trades professionals sitting on the bench. You complain about Higher Ed not being honest, one should first take a closer look at wealth distribution in this nation!!! Know let's be honest!!
Belinda
Michigan