States Look at Immigration Reform
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-03-31/states-look-immigration-reform
This week President Obama said he's still hopeful an immigration overhaul bill will be able to pass soon. But some states are adopting alternatives, most prominently Arizona and Utah. Arizona’s law took a tough stance by requiring police officers to question anyone they suspect as an illegal. Utah passed a hybrid package that tightens enforcement and allows for guest workers. Supporters say it offers an alternative to the costly political polarization Arizona faced. Some legal experts are questioning if these laws are constitutional, including whether they intrude on areas reserved for the federal government. Diane and her guests discuss immigration reform on the state level.
Guests
Mark Shurtleff
Attorney General of Utah
Julia Preston
national immigration correspondent for The New York Times.
Dan Stein
president of the Federation for American Immigration Reform
Frank Sharry
founder and executive director of America's Voice, former executive director of the National Immigration Forum.
Comments
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Please discuss 3 areas, (1) The effect that multi-millions of immigrants and refugees have on U.S. citizens job market. How many are there, legal and illegal? Do citizens have an inherent right to jobs first? (2) Do citizens of foreign countries have an obligation and responsibility to affect change in their own countries? (3) Do we have a moral obligation to provide all civic needs such as education, health care, food, water, shelter, etc.?
Please talk about meat packing companies that hire illegals and dump them when they are injured on the job. Please talk about the mechanization of harvesting and the need for fewer field workers.
Hillary Clinton said, we want to prevent a flood of tens of thousands of refugees that would further destabilize Egypt, when addressing Egypt’s uprising.
President Obama's speech Monday, March 28, 2011 he used almost the same phraseology when he said that he wanted to prevent a flood of thousands of refugees that would further destabilize neighboring Egypt and Tunisia.
However and here is the rub, isn’t that the same thing that is happening here in the United States of America? We have tens of thousands of illegal immigrants, illegally crossing our borders and destabilizing our country. They are destabilizing America by taking our jobs, they destabilize by ruining our health care system and emergency room facilities, they destabilize by reeking havoc on our economic and social institutions. Wouldn’t you think that this is the very same destabilization that, President Obama, and Secretary Hillary Clinton are referring to when it comes to Egypt and Libya?
When it comes to Egypt and Libya, we should view this potential invasion with shock, horror, and concern, but when it comes to the United States of America where the invasion has been underway for some time, we should look the other way. Wouldn’t you say we, the American public, are being sold down the river with this duplicitous policy? How can it be viewed as negative when it comes to Egypt and Libya, but it is OK when it comes to our American borders? Isn’t this the old corrupt double standard? Don’t you feel that you have an obligation, as a matter of law and the Constitution of the United States of America, to protect our borders and stop this illegal immigration?
Diane---
The media repeatedly characterizes Americans demanding enforcement of U.S. immigration laws as belonging only to the right-wing fringe. This is false! I am a Democrat and a Civil libertarian, and I demand that my governement enforce its own immigration laws.
When you have a system by which there is lax enforcement and there is the prospect of rewarding lawbreaking (amnesty), you incentivize further violations of the laws, you discourage immigration by legal means, and you disadvantage those on the waiting list by prolonging their permission to enter the country.
A government which refuses to enforce its own laws is INTOLERABLE!
Diane---
The media repeatedly characterizes Americans demanding enforcement of U.S. immigration laws as belonging only to the right-wing fringe. This is false! I am a Democrat and a Civil libertarian, and I demand that my governement enforce its own immigration laws.
When you have a system by which there is lax enforcement and there is the prospect of rewarding lawbreaking (amnesty), you incentivize further violations of the laws, you discourage immigration by legal means, and you disadvantage those on the waiting list by prolonging their permission to enter the country.
A government which refuses to enforce its own laws is INTOLERABLE!
Diane---
The media repeatedly characterizes Americans demanding enforcement of U.S. immigration laws as belonging only to the right-wing fringe. This is false! I am a Democrat and a Civil libertarian, and I demand that my governement enforce its own immigration laws.
When you have a system by which there is lax enforcement and there is the prospect of rewarding lawbreaking (amnesty), you incentivize further violations of the laws, you discourage immigration by legal means, and you disadvantage those on the waiting list by prolonging their permission to enter the country.
A government which refuses to enforce its own laws is INTOLERABLE!
Precisely!
Sorry--- I am new to your site--- I DIDN'T MEAN TO POST THE SAME CONTENT MULTIPLE TIMES. Tx.
If the Utah law passes, do you expect an increase in the population, in the migration of illegal immigrants toward Utah?
Diane - It would be helpful if you can connect the dots of your speakers by referencing what groups/networks they're tied to. I think it is totally relevant that you have Dan Stein on your show today as a representative of FAIR, but you didn't mention that FAIR is part of the Tanton Network which is tied to white nationalism. This group, among other Tanton Network groups, are responsible for copycat anti-immigrant and hate-based legislation all over the country.
I'm glad you are addressing this difficult issue. I think it's important that we find a productive and practical way to integrate immigrants who are here. This needs to come from federal reform. These states are trying their best, but they are ill-equipped to address the FEDERAL issue of immigration. Immigration law shouldn't be the job of local police. Local police cannot afford to alienate communities that might provide them information about REAL crime.
I feel many of the comments of your guests imply that if you are for enforcing laws against illegal immigration then you are not a real Americans. People have the right to believe anything they want about what is humane, but they don't have a right to use the laws to force those beliefs on others
I noticed Diane allowed a speaker on the show to use the phrase "have a target on their back"....just a couple of months ago we had Diane Rehm shows on the consequences of certain rhetoric during the Giffords tragedy when it was politically expedient to attack Republicans and Sarah Palin. Why is it okay now? Double standard.
In regards to illegal immigrants taking away jobs of American citiizens:
I live in upstate ny in a community that has quite a bit of agriculture. When my father-in-law was a teenager and young adult, he worked on the farms planting and harvesting onions, lettuce, etc. NOW, his grandchildren frown on even the IDEA of doing "that kind" of work. They WILL NOT DO IT.
Yet I also notice their PARENTS frowing on "that kind of work" and the people who do it (immigrants from the Caribbean and South America)!
It is good, honest, physical work. But our local citizens don't want to do it-- and think it's "beneath them".
It only took, what...one generation for that perception to arise?
Americans are spoiled! They DON'T want the work....how do you think the immigrants got the jobs in the first place? duh! Employers NEED to speak up because they want them also. They're just afraid of the consequences. They are great workers. The majority, and I personally DO know MANY, are wonderful people. They are far too often exploited and because of their status this limits how much speaking up they can, or will do. This is another reason for reform.
The American public need to get realistic. Politicians need to recognize that their roll shouldn't be a career and stop worrying about reelection.
(When we bring illegal drugs into the mix...again let's get real. Illegal hasn't worked over the yeas there either! It's lame to drag immigrants into this argument.)
I am a legal immigrant to the U.S, and listening to politicians and to some of your guests, it sounds to me that some laws are made or not made, not based on what is best for the U.S, but on how they(politicians) are going to get the most votes.
Illegal immigration is simply illegal.
The notion that America's existing immigration policies are not humane is FALSE. America has the most generous policies in the world, permitting over 700,000 legal immigrants each year. Enforcement of the law will promote fairness and equality and assures that the law-abiders are the beneficiaries of American immigration. The failure to enforce the law does not produce a humane result.
People do not ;eave the place where they and their ancestors were born for vanal reazons. They leave - risking their lives in the process, because not doing so would be even riskier... Our international and cpommercial policies are closely tied to the immigration issue. I think we do not have "illegal immigrants", what we have and what we are is the #1 country in the world with the largest "displaced" population for these so calles "illegals" are in reality "Displaced"... we shpuld welcome them and treat them the way we have treated the Cuban community and create and follow the model of the Cuban Immigration Adjustment Act to fix the "problem"
The notion that America's existing immigration policies are not humane is FALSE. America has the most generous policies in the world, permitting over 700,000 legal immigrants each year. Enforcement of the law will promote fairness and equality and assures that the law-abiders are the beneficiaries of American immigration. The failure to enforce the law does not produce a humane result.
I wish there were more people in office like Attorney Gen. Mark Shurtleff. As a Independent and a Latina I would vote more for a republican if they were fair and balance as Attorney Gen. Mark Shurtleff. He is not swayed by his party (tea party/extreme right). He is thinking about his state and his country.
Dan Stein is exactly right. I'm a liberal who used to shudder whenever I saw him, but he's right. Democrats want cheap votes and Republicans want cheap labor. Sorry, but that is the truth. And the caller (Elaine?) who said that business owners are usually conservative yet they hire illegal workers because they are cheap - well, obviously she is correct too. Why do we have to go over this again and again and again? AMERICANS WILL DO MANY (no, maybe not most because we are no longer an agricultural society) JOBS. THAT WE WON'T IS PROPAGANDA.
Why is there no mention of the fact that the IRS issues tax-id's to illegal immigrants. This enables them to work as subcontractors, buy homes and cars. One branch of the federal government doesn't seem to know what the other is doing.
Diane, I'm surprised that there has been no discussion of an immigration and policing policy reform right there in your own back yard in Prince William County. A recent report on this policy was published by the University of Virginia. You can find it here: http://surveys.virginia.edu/csr/news/center-survey-research-releases-fin...
True, it's a county policy but state lawmakers and I believe even the current governor in VA have touted it as a statewide solution. It's worth a look.
As a farmer I am tired of taking the hit on this issue. The truth is white america considers themselves above menial labor. I pay well above minimum wage and in many cases provide housing. I have contacted the local unemployment office for prospective employees and I get applicants who want excessive $ and in cash so it doesn' mess up their unemployment . We, my wife and I, have had people refuse $30k jobs because its easier to stay home and continue unemployment !!!!
The problem is the american workers sense of entitlement.
One of the guests on the show this morning mentioned he had written a book about the Dred Scott case. Who was the author and what is the name of the book?
I call BS. See my previous posting. We are no longer an agricultural society and yes, you bet, this is a major sector. But since we have turned it into factory farming, and since we are no longer agricultural, you're right probably the majority of Americans do not want to work on the land. But in every other sector, this is not at all true. On the other hand, I think this is something that could easily change.
The answer is not to lower standards, which is what we do across the board with hiring workers who are not in good legal standing.
LOL! We sure miss our slave labor, don't we?
Once we got rid of black slavery, we couldn't get enough near-slave wage immigrant labor to do the same job, Chinese, Germans, Italians, it didn't matter as long as they did the dirtiest work cheaply enough.
And now with Presidents Bush, Obama, and Calderon, we have the best new plantation system the 21st Century can offer. It's Mexico's explicit government policy to export their poor in order to supply us with cheap, below minimum wage labor, saving them social and political reform in the process, in return for our supplying them with capital.
Poor black people? Why, there aren't any more. They all magically got rich or disappeared. Now Brown is the new Black, because it's hip, it's cool, and it's supported by a both national Hispanic media network, a Democratic voting bloc-building apparatus, and a powerful corporatist Republican lobby unchallenged at the state level and reaching high into the federal as well, a trifecta Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement could have only weeped to have had.
Now as well, with millions and millions of illegal Mexicans and their legal anchor children establishing themselves as irremovable residents, "Hispanics are now the fastest growing bloc of voters" - duh! - and they will soon remove any residual impediments to their residing in the U.S. at will and otherwise directing U.S. politics in proportion to their numbers.
If you're black and not upper middle class, go visit a Native American reservation. Consider it retirement home shopping.
Immigration has always been the wonderful thing that has brought people who want to be free and succeed to this country. Obviously, the USA can not continue to take in people into infinity but we have so much room that you will not see the USA fill up in a number of lifetimes. We need to increase the number on legal crossings on our southern border, secure it much better and shorten the time required to obtain the right to come in from our southern neighbors. However, it can not get too large as more and more people will rush to come in. It needs to be hard to get into the USA.
One of your guests said today that Americans won't take the labor intensive, lower paying jobs if vacated by illegals if they were to leave. That is true but there are different reasons for this that can be done away with; The federal gvt. has stuck their noses into so many parts of our lives that the free market no longer works correctly. If we would only stop extending unemployment into infinity people would have to do something. I know it sounds harsh but we can not keep enabling Americans' irrational belief that we are owed a certain living. There are, and should be, negative consequences to living beyond ones means. I guarantee you that Americans will pick strawberries, carry mortar or even pick up trash if it was that or starve! Our government can not take away the consequences of bad behavior. Let the system work! It's the best in the world and it will equalize itself.
Craig
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As a previous state inspector for the housing for migrant workers I know what many migrant salaries are and what the housing was like. Salaries were VERY good as was much of the housing. Operators of the camps took great pains to meet the codes in effect and worked very hard to insure their workers were safe and had good housing. Workers do NOT pay in Ohio for housing, for electricity, for natural gas, for the head start program, for the school system their children go to, for much of their medical and dental and optical, for the health insurance and they even get a check from the state upon initially arriving in Ohio for their first food bill. Farmers share their crops with them and work very hard to see that their workers are well fed, housed well and safe
On the other hand, many of the migrants abuse their housing by intentionally breaking things, plugging up sewers, damaging the facilities, stealing anything that is not nailed to the floors, walls or ceilings taking stoves, refrigerators, light bulbs and such when they leave. Migrants have left oprs in the middle of the season leaving crops in the field to rot. Migrants have left human excrement in the living room and smeared it on the walls when they left. I have no sympathy for migrants but all the sympathy for oprs.
If farmers paid a salary that had to include the cost of housing, energy, insurance, medical etc. it would then be attractive to US citizens. I woud work gladly for the average $9-10/hour many migrants earn if I did not have to pay living expenses.
So arguing the fact that we need millions of migrants who crowd our schools with children who do not speak english and who do not have car or health insurance and who undercut basic salaries for Americans with the fact that we need these persons who will work for pennies is not an apple to apple comparison.
I applaud Senator Sanders efforts.
I did a back-of-the-envelope calculation, and it showed that the December tax deal amounts to $74,000 to each top 2% household compared to $5200 for an average bottom 98% household.
Our system of taxes is broken. If you add together federal, state, and local taxes (including sales, property and indirect corporate taxes) a minimum wage worker pays a 37% total tax rate on $14,500 wages, while billionaire Warren Buffett paid a 11% tax rate on $8 billion investment gains and income in 2006 (the last year he released his personal tax info).
For much more on our broken tax system and a proposal for a truly fair, economy-boosting, simple tax system that would cut taxes for the middle class and working poor while cutting the deficit see the website below.
-Pete
-See my quixotic website: http://fairsharetaxes.org
Diane, congratulations, you caught Senator Sanders in one deception, when he wanted us to believe his issue is not being discussed in the media. You well know the masses are venting wholesale on “onpoint” this very week. Now ask him where those “trillions” of Social Security are. Answer, it’s spent by the government on other stuff and owing to the Social Security trust.