Class Size and Student Achievement
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-03-08/class-size-and-student-achievement
In Wisconsin the state legislature remain at a total impasse over a vote on legislation that would largely strip public employees of collective bargaining. Teachers are among state employees caught in the ongoing bitter battle over the budget and union rights. The governor of Wisconsin has already announced $800 million in cuts to schools. In Wisconsin and many other cash strapped states across the country, teacher lay-offs are expected and class sizes are likely to grow … but not everyone thinks this is necessarily a bad idea. Join us to discuss what’s lost and what isn’t as class sizes expand in the K through 12 years.
Guests
Diane Ravitch
author, professor at New York University, and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.
Leonie Haimson
executive director, Class Size Matters.
Eric Hanushek
senior fellow, Hoover Institution.
Kris Amundson
communications manager, Education Sector.
Kerry Sylvia
high school teacher, Cardozo High School, Washington, D.C.
Comments
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An unspoken element in the discussion is the role of the parents in supporting their child. It is likely an element in the success of the caller who was successful as a student in the 1960's in classes of 40 and 50 in Catholic school with nuns as teachers.
If a large class of students respected the authority of the teacher, they would learn just fine. We are reaping the consequences of the decline in respect in the family unit. Now our students do not show respect to teachers and many teachers do not respect disrespectful students. Respect must be taught until it is learned. Then reading, writing, and math can be taught. We move a lot and I used to look for small class size first. Then I dropped that and looked for great teachers first. Now I look at the other parents! If they are "bad" then we don't move to that school district. Kind of a weird way to pick a school but the culture of the families is the culture of the school.
As a prodeuct of Cleveland public schools along with four sisters, five of seven grandchildren with two still in school and one of them graduating with honrs this spring. she has many offers from colleges due to her 4.0 gpa and high scores on the college boards. He sister is also an honor student. We all have degrees from Masters to in progress. My son is in college taking up mechanical engineering and making dean's list. He will turn 38 this year. He is the oldest of my parent's grandchildren. No the oldest of the great grandchildren is a third grader, my grandson. Taking accelerated fourth grade courses and acing them both. He reads on an 8th grade level, loves Bookworm, master cryptic puzzles in the blink of an eye. His 5 yr old sister reads on a second grade level. does multiples of 3's. Using the dictionary on her mini pc to learn words and their spelliing to the point she spells whole paragraphs so fast she sounds like blur. She has never been to school or preschool. My grandson, because he speaks well, has a mother and father at home, has everything he needs and most of what he wants, is bullied by those who do not.l They make his day a living hell, sometimes. There need to be a school just for them. spare me individualized attention. The parents can't be reached for these kids. My grandson, who loves to learn, is becoming angry and not wanting to go to school. His father/mother has spoken to the priniciple about this. Nothing. They don't want grandma or his 6'6" uncle who dotes on him to go up there.
We are black, upper middle class and still live in the Hough Area.
I went to Middle and High School in Chapel Hill, and I completely agree with your assessment. I was at one of the more recent High Schools, where redistricting left us with something like 75% rich kids, and the rest poor and minority kids, whereas the other High School was mostly minority and underprivileged kids. The kids with the best grades tended to be from the kids with the most money. I'm sure this has something to do with the home situation; I would think that a family with more money also has more time to spend on their kids, whereas a working class family really does rely on the teachers to make sure their kids can still be educated while mom and dad (or the single parent) are busy making sure they have a roof over their heads. Not everyone can have money and constantly present parents, and I think the way we have things running now the assumption is that all parents have the time required to supplement what the current school model lacks.
There are two teachers that need to be recognized- the child's most influential- PARENTS. Growing up we didn't need to worry about test scores- because we had to face parents. They were unrelenting in expecting our best. Where are our parents? Is it fair to expect teachers and the educational system to take their place? Teachers are very valuable because they are educating our future. However, they need suppport of parents and communities. Truly it takes a community! Lets focus on the community supports for students so the teachers can do their job. Inclusion has given teachers an incredibly diverse classroom- one disruptive student will deprive the other students from the education they deserve. Perhaps the students need a teacher's aide who is an advocate. Let's get our priorities in order!~
State Government would do better to address the social and societal changes that have taken place over the last 40 years.
When I was a kid we had two parent families, very little homework, and the school day was longer. When we got home we used to ride bikes, build forts, etc and burn off "kid energy". One or the other parent would drive us kids to enriching activities.
Nowadays kids sit inside and watch TV, play DS, or are on internet etc where they are exposed to violence and R rated stuff. Then they act out the violence, R-rated behaviors and unused "kid energy" in school. Nowadays so many kids are from single parent house holds. It would be so much better if kids were all "wanted" and planned for children. Nowadays especially it takes the wherewithal of two parent families to help provide kids with enriching outside activities.
The problem is not the teachers.... it is society! The problem started in the 70ies with promiscuity.
Thank you for this great discussion...I am concerned that the issue is more than class size. I agree that smaller class size allows for more individualized attention...but the major issue as I see it is that our standardized tests is not a way to ensure appropriate and effective education. Teaching to the test is why our education of children has not improved!
My daughter taught school and also taught school in New Zealand. The teaching is according to each student's learnng ability. Mastery of content is the goal NOT just passing the test! Students don't fear testing because there goal is to master the content then take the test and move on to more advanced material.
I taught nursing for many years and in nursing mastery of the content is essential for the safety of patient care. Many students trying to enter nursing programs did not have mastery of basic math and science or reading skills so needed much remediation before being able to master nursing program content.
Kathy
In our town, budget cuts mean no more gifted programs. The academically gifted must go through the motions everyday without being truly challenged, because we've taken away funding for the occasional advanced class. The teachers do the best they can, and we have fabulous teachers in our school. But there is a limit to what one person can do.
What is our future when we are not nurturing those who are academically talented?
I am a teacher in Texas. I've taught for 11years. I will tell you that there are many problems with our education system.
1. You wouldn't believe the number of poorly qualified teachers at my school. I walked into one room and the teacher had spelled graph as “graff.” I walked into another room and the teacher was telling a student how to write we were as “we was.” These teachers are trying to become principals. I walked into another room and the Principal yelled at a student and said, “I ain't playing, little boy! I “is” calling your mamma.” Some of them have already moved up the ladder.
2. The college education classes are basically “fluff and puff” courses. A fifth grader could pass them.
3. What was once the bottom fruit with the district has now moved up to the top. It makes your wonder if the superintendent is even qualified.
Teachers need to have meaningful competency tests. I am certified in 5 subjects in Texas, just by taking their tests. I had a 3.9 GPA in college These test are ridiculously easy. I think it's clear that the standards for hiring teachers is much lower than in Europe.
I tend to agree with you, Barbara C.
Education happens on the front lines. Students interacting with one another and with a teacher who constantly challenges them and encourages them to develop their knowledge, talents and skills.
An educator recognizes when a a student is learning. Tests are a simple but overused means of providing documentation. Evaluation should be much more based on performance of meaningful tasks and completion of interesting projects.
Our society's over-emphasis on numbers and quantifiable data (as if every case needs evidence that would stand up in a court of law, or pass an accountant's scrutiny) has undermined education.
As you said: Society must recognize teachers as the experts in the field of education.
I am a product of the 60's who attended cleveland Public Schools. I attended Wade Park Elementary when they had portables to catch the over flow of students. During my fourth grade, I had to attend half days due to over crowding. We learned, sure, yet we were treated separately and not equally. a lot of cleveland problems stems from that time in this city. White parents did not want their kids in schools with us. I am not speaking of busing. At that time, in cleveland, there were clear lines of demarcation. The black neighborhood ended at Superior. Across that you were in the white neighborhoods. Yet, the schools were in between. All things being equal, the schools should have been half/half or close to it. No, They made some all white and Wade Park mostly black and over crowded. The white schools were never even half full. The parents received special transfers to sen their children out of the area to prevent their mingling with us. The paul Briggs, the principle, started a building spree. He built all these schools to keep the white parent s happy an the system segregated. Most of the 'new' schools are gone. torn down. Just from the '70's. The system has not been quite right since then.
All this talk is just that, everyone tries to distract from the reality that there are bigger problems than class size and teachers pay. The unions present themselves as pure and dedicated and in my experience in 25 years in public schools I found good teachers teach and inspire no matter what the conditions are and poor teachers blame every possible thing but themselves and hide behind the union. The unions overly protect the tenured poor teachers and that is the root of the problem.
If we have so much experience available and so much knowledge about how children learn, why isn't the same marketing used to make learning and excelling as cool as the new video game or cheeseburger?
There is no one problem with public education, and none is willing admit it and begin unraveling the years of problems built into the system so we spend hours debating and reaching no truths and continue this downward trend the amazingly no one is responsible for.
I stopped listening today and hope some real topic comes on soon.
maltesefalcon
I believe you completely. when i attended Cleveland schools during the 60's, every theacher you met corrected grammer. To this day i am most appreciative of them and my parents, sharw croppers kids from Louisiana, who believed if you lived in America, you speak it correctly. Slang, butchered English was not permitted. 'I is ' and it's sister 'Is you' sounds as stupid as it is. I flinch whenever I hear it spoken. Even my grandson started saying it becasue the village idiots did in school. He never grew up in that environment and it is frustrating to hear him using what i call slave plantation language in the year 2011. That makes a lot of my feloow black people mad. So what. They question whey we sound white. i answer because i speak english and not slave patois and that really shuts them. They have these english butchering people teaching our children. The blind leading the blind over a cliff.
It seems the reward for being an effective teacher will be to put more and more students in your class until you are no longer effective. It is already true that the teachers most able to deal with problem students are rewarded by having the most difficult students assigned to them. Principals are only human. They can't put a student in a class where he/she would overwhelm the teacher.
I can't think of anything that would push more teachers out of the field they love. Remember an effective teacher could be an effective salesman, manager, etc. Smart, caring, and good communicator are the traits and skills needed to succeed in almost any field.
What happens to education when those with the most talent and choices are pushed out of the field?
PS Paying the "effective" teachers more than others is not the answer. They did not choose education because of money and this could add the burden of resentment of colleagues.
Because marketing has nothing to do with it. Even in 'good' schools the perceived intelligent wone is picked on. Called a nerd. It is the culture. Not the unions and not the teachers. Not their pay, class size. In the 60's it was a badge of honor to 'walk' with oyour class and graduate. Their was a friendly atmosphere of who gets the better grade. Not this who is cool enough to go to jail. Yes, they think it is better to have a jail term than an education. No matter what you think or wirte or blame, it is the culutre. The culture of such agnect failure on some parts, especially in the black neighborhood, it defies reasoning. Sopmeone I know deal with the prisoners and this person used to become angry when whites would belittle us when it came to education. She said she understands and is beginning to wonder about us, too. She had never seen, met so many illiterate young people in the system. One was told they would need guidance and he did not understand the meaning of the word. THIS is what a lot of teachers deal with. Yes, a good teacher can teach just about anyone. A person with a green thumb angrow just about anything, yet, put salt in the earth and nothing will grow. Well, a lot of teachers are dealing with barren ground.
Is this school accedited? Has any qualified objective team of observers evaluated this school's performance?
This sounds to me like a situation where I wish the Teacher's Association (aka Union) had the power to have teachers work with their peers to
A) Hold one another to standards of competence in language use, management skills and professionalism. Make sure all teachers are good representatives of the association. Our local electricians' union admits members only after they have completed a rigorous apprenticeship.
B) Push for the removal of unqualified administrators. If a person is not providing leadership in the school and providing appropriate support for the professional educators in the classrooms that person should be stopped from advancing "up the ranks" until they prove to the teachers and parents of the school community that they're capable. Their evaluation needs to be based on performance review by their staff and parent association.
C) Demand that college education programs uphold high standards. Would a medical school keep passing an unqualified student to become a physician or surgeon-- just to keep collecting tuition? People can choose whether or not to see a doctor-- and usually which doctor!
School is mandatory. How many allow students to choose their teachers?
Outside of my family members, my teachers have had the most significant impact on my life. Starting with Sister Briget in first grade Catholic school in the Bronx to Mr. Rosenbladt who tauget me how to learn to Mr. Winegarten who added to that experience to many of my college professors who were more that willing to share their knowledge. Teachers open doors that would otherwise be left closed. I don't think beancounters should decide the direction our schools should take. When the bottom line becomes the bottom line, we are in serious trouble.
I apologize for this rant. I didn't read all the responses but here's why your teachers are not as effective as they would like and your students are not learning and parents are not cooperating. Teachers, students and parents -- we have all been set up to fail by our top administrators! Increasing classroom size is not even a workable solution and when, for the love of all things good, will administrators and the government come up with a common sense plan. Your posters who mention going to school in the 60's with large classes and everybody learned is showing their 21st century ignorance. First, inclusion was not pushed. Everybody was of similar backgrounds and homelife. Second, standardized testing is not working -- face it! For those who fall in the bell curve, maybe, but those outliers need extra attention. Third, start taking the home environment into consideration when you start making changes of curriculum. When an educated mother can't understand a new method of adding 23 and 48, this is a problem. What about those parents who have undiagnosed learning disabilities or who are not fast learners? How are they supposed to guide their child to confidently find the answers when they don't even know how to get the answer AND still maintain their parental dignity? I bring up all these factors because they directly affect teacher's effectiveness. Give the teachers the tools they need to go from being great teachers to exceptional teachers and then yes increasing classroom size may work. I applaud all teachers because those of us who don't teach, wouldn't last a week in their shoes and you know it.
In a time of so much financial trouble, why is it just up to the teachers. Can't we pull together as communities with volunteer programs consisting of parents/seniors (just expamples) to help with the education of our children.
Perhaps applying a workload model would work better than simply chooosing a class size number. Factors to consider would include special education students, second language learners, behavior problems, etc. Teachers who have less of these students would have larger class sizes and those who have more, smaller class sizes. The great diversity of abilities and disabilities is a huge factor in both teacher effectiveness and student success.
Perhaps applying a workload model would work better than simply chooosing a class size number. Factors to consider would include special education students, second language learners, behavior problems, etc. Teachers who have less of these students would have larger class sizes and those who have more, smaller class sizes. The great diversity of abilities and disabilities is a huge factor in both teacher effectiveness and student success.
Perhaps applying a workload model would work better than simply chooosing a class size number. Factors to consider would include special education students, second language learners, behavior problems, etc. Teachers who have less of these students would have larger class sizes and those who have more, smaller class sizes. The great diversity of abilities and disabilities is a huge factor in both teacher effectiveness and student success.
I believe class size does matter because schools currently combine children with different academic levels together in one class. How can we expect teachers to effectively teach to a wide range of levels in a large class? This is particularly prominent in my state when there are many children with English as a second language.
The teachers are being forced to teach to the average which leaves out the needs of the lower and higher level kids. Increasing class size only makes this problem worse. I feel the teachers would be able to do an effective job if they were given a manageable number of children with the same skill level. This may mean smaller class sizes for children who need more individual attention.
Common Sense Indeed.
I'm no teacher, and I've not played one on TV.
That said I remember how I responded to class size as a child and cite it often. Small class - outperform, large class coast. That was just me of course.
Still, talk to anyone about their direct experience and it's clear that CLASS SIZE MATTERS.
Now I have a first grader in the SOL (truly SOL) world... with 25% of his class requiring special attention. Class size= 16... teacher = barely keeping up with the more able students as she handles the more challenging ones. Between the two, teaching to the test, and the demands on teachers these days, we're headed into a black hole education-wise.
And I feel SO bad for teachers these days!
I'm just sayin'
There is no great mystery about school and teacher performance. One need look no farther than the best private schools and how they contrast with most public schools: private schools are smaller and class sizes are smaller; students tend to come from middle or upper income families whose parents have provided them with a rich intellectual development background; private school headmasters or principals are empowered to administer their school free from the huge, stultifying hierarchical bureaucracy of many large urban districts; private schools are able to expel disruptive or non-performing students and dismiss ineffectual teachers; private school teachers tend to have deeper interest and academic background in the subjects they are teaching; and private school teachers are freer to determine their own course syllabuses, text books and reading assignments than are public school teachers.
Eric Hanushek's claim that class size doesn't matter is not persuasive. About what one would expect from Hoover. Neither is his claim that rating teachers based on their students' test scores and firing those whose students score poorly. Rating schools and teachers solely or primarily on test results distorts curriculums, wastes a lot of money and too often blames teachers unfairly for low scores. Hanushek let the cat out of the bag when he said we have no choice but to increas class sizes because we can no longer afford the cost of good public schools. His proposed remedies amount to little more than a rationalization for slashing public school budgets and undermining teachers' collective bargaining rights under the law.
ok so I really don't understand why this is being made into such a complicated subject. The success of the education of our children is based on their teachers and their parents. Their parents need to be involved and educated about the teachers and classes their children are involved with. Teachers need to be enthusiastic, they need to care about their students and their success and they need to all around be good at their job which means teaching in a way the children can understand. I am so sick of people acting like there is no such thing as a bad teacher! Just like any other career it takes skill and some people have the skills needed and some don't. It's THAT simple!! Small classes work because they allow teachers that are good at their job a chance to focus on ALL of their students' needs. However, small classes will not help a "bad" teacher do better. If they are not concerned about their students, if they care more about the pay check than the students' education then they should find a new line of work. Why are teachers not evaluted by their students, peers and students' parents. Teachers should NEVER be rated by test scores because though they are a factor in children's educational success they are NOT the only factor.
If America thinks our public schools are overrun with sub-par teachers, then the easiest way to ensure better teachers in the classroom is to pay them more, not less, and allow schools to choose who they will hire without any "first hired last fired" legislation.
I also think it's ridiculous that there is not more discussion about demanding that parents be more involved with their children. If parents are so concerned about their children's education, then they should be on the front lines helping their kids with homework, with studying, etc.
Bethany, first of all get it straight. We were FORCED into these classes. 100 percent due to racism, right here in Cleveland Ohio. We did not like it but just as my parents learned in the jim crow south and family members attended college in the jim crow south where black people getting any kind of education was frowned upon in the 40's, 50's and 60's, not counting all the decades before that, we still learned. The 21st century ignorance was not on our part. We kept no one out of a school. WE did not create over crowding to appease another race. It was done to us. How many of you had to go to school, in the fourth grade, half days due to over crowding? In my family we have that type of safety net. We have teachers, CPAs, best friend of the family is an engineer and when we get stumped on math, we e-mail her, yes, her and she is black also.
Robert - Thanks for listening. I do want to make clear that my views on class size long predate my (relatively short) time with Education Sector. As I mentioned, I first worked on the class size issue in the early 1990s.
Casey - My only child went to our neighborhood schools. Which were terrific, but which had a very diverse student body.