Class Size and Student Achievement
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-03-08/class-size-and-student-achievement
In Wisconsin the state legislature remain at a total impasse over a vote on legislation that would largely strip public employees of collective bargaining. Teachers are among state employees caught in the ongoing bitter battle over the budget and union rights. The governor of Wisconsin has already announced $800 million in cuts to schools. In Wisconsin and many other cash strapped states across the country, teacher lay-offs are expected and class sizes are likely to grow … but not everyone thinks this is necessarily a bad idea. Join us to discuss what’s lost and what isn’t as class sizes expand in the K through 12 years.
Guests
Diane Ravitch
author, professor at New York University, and senior fellow at the Brookings Institution.
Leonie Haimson
executive director, Class Size Matters.
Eric Hanushek
senior fellow, Hoover Institution.
Kris Amundson
communications manager, Education Sector.
Kerry Sylvia
high school teacher, Cardozo High School, Washington, D.C.
Comments
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Is there any research that demonstrates that larger classes are better?
As a teacher educator, I believe that we should aim to attract to the profession people with a different mindset or foster a different way of looking at the profession. Yes, in elementary schools class size is indeed more salient to learning. Nevertheless, a class size of 25 to 30 students in middle school or above who are fully attentive can indeed achieve a high level of learning with a teacher who has a deep knowledge of the subject matter.
As a teacher for 25 years, I can tell you that class size does matter greatly, and that the standardized tests have casued our country to "dumb down". All students now know exactly the same material, just the material needed to pass the tests. Innovation and achievement have been discouraged. The stakes for schools to pass the tests are so great that no one can teach anything except the test. The schools have suffered.
My husband is recognized as an excellent teacher in an elementary school in San Antonio, TX. He has experienced some of the same problems that the teacher on your show has expressed. The numbers in the classroom are growing and children with special needs, e.g., ED, autism, are being mainstreamed for the entire day with little support. The expectations that are being placed on teachers today is beyond realistic. I rarely see my husband due to the amount of work that is expected of him. Teachers need help!!!
I have my mother's second grade class photo from 1920. One teacher and 50 students in that photo. When I was in elementary school in the 1950s, my class sizes ranged from about 35 to 42.
I'm a photographer and I spent ten years photographing elementary classes in SE Virginia and the state of New Mexico. The average class size in Virgina were around 30 and in New Mexico from 15 to 25. I found 3 out of 5 schools per week in Virginia that I photographed, the kids were rowdy and difficult to photograph. Of the schools I photographed in New Mexico, I usually had not more than a couple schools a year where the kids were difficult and most of those schools had larger class sizes. I averaged photographing 1,000 classes a year.
So from my own experience, smaller classes were much more controllable than larger classes. My hunch is teachers probably have the same results.
If numbers don't matter why not let everyone who tries out for a sports team stay on the team instead of cutting kids? And for that matter, why not remove sports as a school connected expense and form community athletic clubs as in Europe? This would save a few dollars.
I believe you are missing the 800 pound in the room.What about the affect of parenting has on student achievement. If teachers don't have the support of the parents and parents dont have the skills to help, then teachers even great teachers are at a disadvantage.
As a child, I grew up in an era of increased class size. In the 1st grade, I had 30+ students in my class. I ended up flunking the 1st grade, even though I could read at the 3rd grade level & count to 200. I was bored to tears in class, because the teacher was focused on those who did not yet have the skills I had. All throughout my education, I was in classes with 30 - 40 students. Many times, the teachers never even learned my name. They were completely overwhelmed keeping up with the Special Ed & ED students, leaving the majority to fend for themselves. As a result of this 'benign neglect,' I barely graduated from high school.
As a college professor now, I have taught classes ranging with students from 7 - 40+. It is definitely easier to give students the individual attention they require in smaller classes (less than 20). Class size has a huge impact on student achievement, especially in elementary school. I know from my own teaching experience that teachers' effectiveness is eroded when they are overwhelmed & vastly outnumbered.
Subject: Class size
Would you leave your elementary aged child at a baby sitter on Friday night if he/she had 24 other kids at her house?
Yet we expect teachers not only to keep the kids safe, but teach them as well.
Cost of a baby sitter: $5.00 per hour per kid x 6 hours x 5 days per week x 36 weeks per year.
$5.00 per hour
x 25 kids = $125.00 per hour
x 6 hours per day = $750.00 per day
x 5 days per week = $3,750.00 per week
x 36 weeks per year =$135,000 per year
I agree with Henecheck that we have few choices. But, increasing class size is not a choice. His statistics fly in the face of common sense. We must increase, not decrease funding, for education. I'm reminded of the old bumper sticker "What if they fully funded education and had a bake sale to raise money for weapons and corporate welfare?"
Leigh in Birmingham, Alabama
As a teacher, I find it offensive that so many individuals comment openly about school environment WITHOUT having stepped foot in a public school classroom. It's impossible to comment effectively without being there.
Class size, difference in abilities, lack of funding going directly to the classroom, parent involvement, growing paperwork, etc ALL make it impossible to reach all children at the level expected.
Completely agree with experience here in Texas.
Why has no one said that parent input with a child's schooling is essential? Often children's parents work at night, or are single parents who are overloaded.
Furthermore, I am an example of the individual attention graciously given by a teacher. Because she individually sat with me every day in 3rd grade for a long enough period of time, I learned to read. Before that I could not. She was a major factor in my own teaching career and my further education - a master's degree, plus 50 hours added. Class size and parental input are of extreme importance.
With all the budget cuts discussion in every aspect of our lives, I do not hear anyone asking if we are cutting salaries for senior and middle management. Most of those people are terribly overpaid, especially when you consider the state of education in our systems today. Where was senior and middle management when their investments were not going in the right direction resulting in a loss of money that impacts the overall education system? I agree there may be "bad" teachers. However, once again, where is management that they allow this problem to continue year after year? Don't they believe in performance management? As for the constant testing, it is a shame that we teach to test. We need to just go back to testing only for subjects taught. Forget about standardized testing. It has been proven already that this type of testing is not effective. Testing companies are raking in the dollars at the cost of our children.
Mary
I have raised four children, all attending Catholic school until their middle school years -then off to the local public school. Without a doubt the major difference I experienced between public and private schools was not so much the quality of the TEACHER, but the qualaity of the other parents, and the quality of the environment the kids went home to every night, were their parents there, did they have two parents, so much depends on these factors, to put all of these issues onto teachers is unfair. On the other hand I ran into two teachers yesterday that were supposed to be at an In-Service, they were shopping and happy to tell me that they were skipping out!!!
I have raised four children, all attending Catholic school until their middle school years -then off to the local public school. Without a doubt the major difference I experienced between public and private schools was not so much the quality of the TEACHER, but the qualaity of the other parents, and the quality of the environment the kids went home to every night, were their parents there, did they have two parents, so much depends on these factors, to put all of these issues onto teachers is unfair. On the other hand I ran into two teachers yesterday that were supposed to be at an In-Service, they were shopping and happy to tell me that they were skipping out!!!
This attack on public servants like teachers is going the same way as immigration.
Illegal immigrants who cause problems or come in illegally is normally what you hear about but in economics there is supply and demand.
It seems it was never the employers who are large and small, like the contractors that hire labor to build houses.
It is about the teachers as well as the students. Private school and student even with public voucher still faces the private school choosing to keep the student where as the public schools does not. there are bad students, why because of teachers...no.
I attended parochial school in the 1960s in the suburbs. My first grade room had 73 students with one nun. This had reduced to 54 by eight grade for various reasons. I learned a lot attending this school, successfully graduated from college prep high school and college. One key here is discipline-- the nuns ruled and had much freer rein, not that I agreed with all they did. I understand today that if a teacher looks at a student the wrong way they will get complaints from the parents. I also recall that our first grade reading class was split into three separate groups in the one classroom and that worked OK for me as a student.
When test scores from different years are compared, how does the increase in inclusion students weigh in the comparison? Are the same types of students being compared?
I attended Catholic schools and feel I got an excellent education. I remember classes separated by ability. Teachers were able to pace the lessons for the whole group. Parent involvement was also high, not so much in the actual process but in standing behind the teachers and reinforcing discipline at home.
I also attempted to teach high shcool math. The classes included about 30 students of widely varying abilities. Even with a special ed teacher assistant in the classes with enough special needs students, there was no way to spend time helping students and actually trying to teach. Parents felt their children had the 'right' to disrupt the class. I went back to my successful, more lucrative business career.
How do you get "great" teachers when the job is made more and more difficult while pay and benefits are cut?
I was trained as an elem. teacher at Geo. Mason U. (in Fairfax) in the early 90's where I was also on their collaborative comm. to improve the U's teacher training program. I've been involved with F'fx Conty public schools for over 20 years in many ways. (I've also worked on standards improvements for the profession of architects).
I'm appalled to hear Dr. H. say "Having an effetive teacher is much more important than having a small class size;" and, to hear Ms. Amundsen jump ship to the beaurocrat attitude that when in budget crisis, you don't hire more teachers.
The number one most important TOOL in the classroom is THE TEACHER.
The class size for the curriculum demanded in the 21st century is EQUALLY CRITICAL. Period.
The gentleman talking about "effective teachers" needs to explain how he would evaluate them. I am a school board member in a local county. we are told that increasing class size by one to two students will not harm students if they have effective teachers.
The problem is how do you fairly evaulate teachers. Test Scores are not the best tool as many in school administrations claim.
I believe the crux of the education problem is a systemic societal one - more than a matter of class size or teacher effectiveness. Too many people in our society do not value an education enough to prepare their children to attend school. Could you please explore that issue?
Experience creates the great teachers you are talking about. As the budgets are reduced, the first to go are the experienced teachers and the newer, less experienced teachers are hired.
If you accept the study that shows class size is irrelevant do you also accept the studies that show that merit pay has little or no effect on teaching effectivness? You can't pick and choose which data to which you refer
why does it become instantly alright for college students to attend lecture classes, as they do at all jr colleges and colleges across the country? if 20-24 is the absolute maximum, what changes so that kids do well? i don't buy the absolute maximum. my children went through the baltimore public schools, my grandchildren are in dc area public schools.
Simply take a look at class size's and teacher-student ratio's at your private non-parochial schools. And read Jonathon Kozol's works and recommendations.
Interesting point about parochial school class sizes. our 'Sister" once told us that we were lucky to have only 36 in out classroom. She had taughr 60 at her previous assignment. She once told me that she did her seating chart by ability level. Students who tended to have higher grades were seated together, and tended to "compete", she explained. She could spend time in the part of the classroom with lower-performing students who tended to have similar questions and needs-- and she could 'overlook" some of their conversations as they sometimes collaborated to share information, supplies, etc.
She had high expections of everyone, and of course, lots of parrental support and involvement. She never resorted to any physical forms of discipline. she never had to.
I don't understand why our society does not recognize that teachers are the experts in the field of education.
The only explanation that makes sense to me is that we have been brainwashed by those who are making money by "evaluating" education and punishing both the teachers, the students, the parents -- our entire society -- in the process.
I wonder how much money the teacher "evaluation" industry is making? Money for developing instruments like the TAKS tests, funding the studies that evaluate such common sense tools as lowering class sizes, etc.
Thank you for this discussion...I think smaller class size is helpful when students can get individualized attention...but the bigger problem in my mind is that we have standardized testing and everyone is teaching to the test! Students need to master content to be successfulL.
My daughter taught school in New Zealand and they have a system in which mastery is the goal. Each student works toward mastery and only takes the test when they have mastered the material.
We need to rethink how we teach and grading and test scores are not the answer.
I taught nursing and we must have mastery of the content to provide safe care. Again, mastery should be our goal not test passing which is now our current goal.
Kathy
I have taught the same university course for 11 years, two sections per semester. Each semester I have one large (200+) section, and one small (60) section. My content, exams, methods in both sections are always the same. Without fail, the large one always does worse than the "small" one.
That being said, even 60 is too much for a college course. The class time ends up being a lecture, with genuine student engagement difficult if not impossible. Students learn less, and retain almost nothing.
What is the goal here?
I agree with Diane, when she said something to the effect of this: When we put budget at the forefront of the conversation, we are ruining the education system.