Drilling for Natural Gas: Rewards and Risks
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-03-01/drilling-natural-gas-rewards-and-risks
The state of Pennsylvania is in the forefront of the current rush to extract natural gas, and it also seems to be in the middle of an increasingly contentious debate over related environmental risks. The process of extracting natural gas involves forcing millions of gallons of water deep into the earth to break up rock and release the gas. Environmentalists say that in some states, including Pennsylvania, this waste water which is often laden with heavy salts and naturally occurring radioactive materials is being improperly discharged into rivers and streams. Please join us for conversation on the risks and rewards of drilling for natural gas.
Guests
John Quigley
former secretary Pennsylvania's Department of conservation and Natural Resourses
Ian Urbina
reporter, NY Times
Tony Ingraffea
Dwight C. Baum Professor of Engineering
Weiss Presidential Teaching Fellow
Cornell University
Kathryn Klaber
president, Marcellus Shale Coalition
Amy Mall
policy analyst, Natural Resources Defense Council
John Hanger
former Secretary of the Pennsylvania Department of Environmental Protection.
Comments
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Drill Baby Drill:
Drilling is good for the economy and good for the country especially now with the situation in the Middle East.
Pass by some of those rigs and you see crews of men and women working. Never have seen that at Wind and Solar Farms. Some of those rough necks make good money,
Slow the Frack Down
I agree that deep shale drilling can and will be a good source of domestic energy for the 21st century, and a good bridge to the renewable future. However, the legacy of impacts by resource extraction in the commonwealth of PA (i.e. acid mine drainage, strip mines) should make one stop and think clearly about the implications of this new industry. Impacts on water quality and forest fragmentation have not been thoroughly considered as we rush to sink a well in any unclaimed spot. As wells dry and companies either move on or go bankrupt, the externalities of degraded waters and impaired habitats will be left for the state to mitigate with taxpayers' money. Talk about a looming budget crisis. Lets slow down the permiting process, learn from the past, and do this right for Pennsylvanians and the country.
I agree with Adam about the looming costs of mitigation and clean-up. DRShow has handled this issue better than just about any other outlet. I hope today's exchange is educational and motivating for the public. Sometimes the drone of industry advocates is irrelevant to discussion. Seat people of knowledge on your panel and not argumentative hacks. I know you are trying. Thanks.
As with any complex technology, this too can be done safely with responsible engineering management and oversight. The world situation and growing demand for oil should make natural gas our highest priority for our national security and economic welfare as it is the only fuel that could fully replace gasoline as the fuel for our 240 million private vehicles. Why are the big three US manufacturers not pursuing or offering CNG vehicles as they do in other countries?
Here is the NYTs article-
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/27/us/27gas.html
NYS Governor Andrew Cuomo must respond to the overwhelming majority of New Yorkers who want a continued de facto moratorium and/or a complete ban on high volume horizontal hydraulic fracturing. Tens of thousands of inherently polluting gas wells is clearly a bad idea for New York State and ultimately bad for America. New York needs to take advantage of the current gas glut to be a leader in smart, renewable initiatives, and get people to work with good jobs in new businesses that will not so devastatingly impair our land, air and water. Too many economists say this is a bad idea, too. Another boom, another bust. Our children and grandchildren will be paying for the bust.
Please have your guest address Josh Fox's Documentry Gasland.
Steve Strickland
As Samuel Taylor Coleridge wrote in his "The Rhyme of the Ancient Mariner" (1798),
"Water, water, everywhere,
Nor any drop to drink."
It was not long after the close of the second world war that a group gathered in the upper Mojave Desert to consider issues confronting the world. Among others in attendance were Bertrand Russell and Edmond Jaeger, the dean of American desert naturalists.
Around the campfire one evening the topic under consideration was Right and Wrong. After listening to his distinguished associates for a time, Jaeger turned to Russel, his white wispy hair outlined by the fire and the smoke from his pipe, and said, "The environment, since it cannot run away nor defend itself, must be protected. And THAT, sir, is the difference between what is Right and what is Wrong."
To the surprise of no one with a modicum of integrity (and an I.Q. larger than their shoe size), it all comes down to that five-letter word, M O N E Y - and the concomitant power that derives therefrom.
And so, Lincoln's great fear of "government of the people, by the people, for the people" perishing is fast becoming a reality, being replaced instead by government of, by and for the corporations and the fabulously wealthy, courtesy of the politicians (and judges) they have bought and paid for, most of whom either are woefully ignorant of science - or simply dismissive of it.
Of course, as an amusement, one might ponder what Jesus would say, but imagine, if only for a moment, how Washington, Jefferson, Madison, Franklin - and yes, Lincoln - would view the spectacle we have become...
Why is this even being considered when we move away from carbon based energy sources?
Wind, solar, geothermal, and hydroelectrice power are all options that will provide clean energy--and create jobs that can't be oursourced.
Any drilling for oil or gas is a step backward.
Living downstream from a sewage treatment plant in Watertown, NY, that has accepted fracking wastewater, this issue greatly concerns me. I am surprised at how little concern there seems to be about what this wastewater contains and what it's impact on the environment might be.
Do any of the panelists have any knowledge of a law recently introduced in the Pennsylvania Senate, the Unconventional Oil and Gas Act, that would include a provision for forced pooling - basically allowing gas companies to take gas from landowners even if they do not opt to lease?
It is important to know if the health events are caused by environmental contamination. Asthma, nose bleeds etc occur everywhere; is the incidence increased in populations near fracking? I am a proponent of a safe environment but a bigger proponent of good science.
Please ask your guests what percentage of all wells' flowback and production water is being treated and reused. That is how much water will keep coming up out of these wells over the years, that is not reused. The water keeps coming up out of the wells for many many years. It's my understanding that only the very early flow is being reused in wells, and at that only at very few wells sites. The onsite processing plants needed for this process are very expensive and apparently not within the set of choices that many of the drilling companies can afford.
One of the environmental hazards is what happens under-ground as the rock fractures uncontrollably: the toxic drilling water can leach into nearby groundwater reserves, contaminating them.
UPDATE: According to a January 6, 2011, story in the Watertown Daily Times, 35,000 gallons of fracking wasterwater was accepted for treatment at the Watertown, NY, sewage treatment facility; the city received $1,135 for treating that wastewater. As reported by Craig Fox, the article said that the company has since decided to work with a town in Ohio.
It seems people agree that this drilling should not move forward without aadequate regulation and enforcement. And yet at the federal and state level, republicans want to cut funds for just these regulatory roles in government. How can we assume that there will be funding for this in the future?
Ask your guests why the Cheney-Bush energy panel got fracking fluids exempted from disclosure and the clean water act. What percent of the fracking fluid is captured? Ask why Pennsylvania is not collecting extraction taxes. Ask why drinking water wells are exploding. Ask what effect the withdrawal of water from nearby streams has on trout steams.
Your advocate for the environment cites radioactivity without mentioning specifics (radon gas?, material in suspenion?, material in solution? elements? etc). Without specifics, it is difficult to assess any danger, and I would call this fear-mongering.
Your industry advocate, when asked about radioactivity, immediately said those elements have half lives. Radioactive elements have half lives up to thousands of years. Without specifics, she is hiding behind a partial explanation.
Both of these advocates need to cite specifics and not generalitites.
Steve
I am the owner of gas rights on a piece of land in West Virginia who has signed a lease with a gas drilling company. Since I have a legal obligation to continue the lease with the driller, what options do I have to ensure that the gas on the property is being extracted safely?
Dave Pyles
You can check out the EPA's Study of Hydraulic Fracturing and Drinking Water (currently available for public comment) through this link:
http://www.sierraclub.org/naturalgas/rulemaking/documents/EPA.FrackingSt...
I was born and raised in Sunbury, PA on the Susquehanna river. I've had many, many, many friends and relatives die at early ages from Cancer. This, in my mind, has to do with all the contamination done to our land and waterways by companies such as Marcella's Shale. Marcella's Shale is now taking their waste through the streets of Sunbury where water is escaping from the trucks and landing on our roads. They say it is not contaminated and is safe. That is a complete lie and I'd love for them to proove it. Watch Gasland, the film that shows just what these gas drilling companies are doing to our water table.
The regulators are in the pockets of these companies. What OVERSIGHT????
Public tax payers ultimately must pay for all of this testing particularly since the industry does not reveal the chemicals used. The industry should be paying nationally and locally to have independent testing done by the EPA and state agencies
I"d like to point out that drinking water utilities have the capacity to test for most of the constituents (including radioactivity) at any time. Just takes a phone call (if they contract out sampling and lab work), or a request to staff.
What's the holdup?
Because our government officials are in the pockets of these companies and see to it that they get what they want. Remember the electric car???? Recalled and crushed!!!! For what???? Because it took money out of the oil companies pocket.
There has to be a better way....
Diane, I am listening with great interest to this morning's show. I live in NYS on the shores of the upper east branch of the Delaware River and have been acutely aware of the very frightening prospect of fracking in my back yard!
Are any of your guests aware of a Canadian company known as Gasfrac Energy Services? This company has a patent on and uses a proprietary LPG (Liquefied Petroleum Gas) Fracturing Process utilizing gelled LPG in place of conventional fracturing fluids. Unlike conventional treatments where as much as 50% of the carrier remains in the reservoir, virtually 100% of the LPG can be recovered. It seems to me that if we must obtain these natural gas deposits we should be looking for a better way and this may be it!
Is it true that the companies and processes involved in hydraulic fracturing are still exempt from the clean air and clean water acts? And if so, shouldn't they also be required to abide by such?
Even if the wastewater is being recycled, based on the high quantity of water used in the process, how can we keep this hazardous water from making its way back into the water cycle? Industry personnel have said that one possible method of disposal is to deposit the wastewater underground in the drilling holes. Being that fracking opens gaps into the bedrock to allow the flow of gas, can't the disposed wastewater just as easily seep into those cracks and leach into groundwater?
Poison the drinking water in exchange for unsafe drilling and extraction of natural gas? That sounds reasonable? Its good thing the adults are now in charge of the EPA.
One of the largest energy companies (natural gas) just sent me a contract to lease my land for mineral rights dated with today's date.
How do I get more information on reviewing my contract to insure I'm getting a fair price as well as visiting a drilling site nearby to see how they might be setting up a well on my land. I'm concerned in that they might remove unnecessary trees, or other damage to my land, changing the value to how my property will look.
The contract is very ambiguous about what they are going to do on-site to my land. (The contract outlines they can do many things including, drilling, putting a pipeline through it, storing waste, storing gas, etc.) I want to find out what my options are without needing to spend more money on an attorney than they are offering to pay me. The lease is for five years and is automatically renewable for an additional five years if they elect to.
David from Tuscarawas County, Ohio
240-475-5706
L E D is the future of lighting.
Congratulations Diane on the superb job you did moderating, particularly pinning your guests down to address the questions you posed.
The NYT reporter, Amy Mall, and Professor Ingraffea are to be commended for their clear and honest discussion of the issues. What John Hangar failed to mention was that most regulations in PA came after the industry created havoc. With the need expressed for more EPA oversight, one needs to be suspicious of why the GOP want to eliminate the EPA.
Professor Ingraffea's assertion at the end refutes a commonly held assumption -- that natural gas is cleaner than other fuels. Very interesting! Perhaps you can have him back to discuss that further.