State Budgets and Public Unions
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-02-21/state-budgets-and-public-unions
In Madison, Wisconsin protesters for and against Governor Scott Walker’s plan to end collective bargaining rights for some public employees are gathering for a seventh day. State employees have already largely agreed to accede to the Governor’s demands for stepped up health care and pension contributions, but future collective bargaining rights remains a sticking point. The Republican controlled legislature hoping to vote on the Governor’s plan have been thwarted by Democratic legislators who remain out of state. Join us for discussion on the stand-off and its implications budget battles in other states and the nation’s capital.
Guests
Governor Mitch Daniels
Governor of Indiana, Republican
Chris Edwards
Director, Tax Policy Studies, Cato Institute
Ron Blackwell
chief economist, AFL-CIO
Gerald McEntee
president, American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees,
Ben Manski
member of the faculty, Madison College
spokesman, Liberty Tree, a Pro-Democracy Think Tank
Comments
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Let's hear facts instead of myths and opinions. Connecticut apparently asked for facts and discovered that while it's true that many entry level government workers make more than their private counterparts, the opposite is true as you go up the education ladder. http://www.cga.ct.gov/2011/rpt/2011-R-0055.htm
At least for federal government jobs, they are competitive and only the best of the applicants even get interviews. Perhaps that accounts in part for the higher wages for entry level workers.
Someone claimed that teachers are overpaid because the school year in their district is only 185 days. The number of "school days" in the school year refers to the number of days that school is required to be open for students. It does not include days where teachers are meeting with parents, improving their skills, grading, preparing for classes, writing tests and performing many more tasks. They often have to buy supplies and pay for them out of their salaries.
If teachers are so overpaid, why is it that states are always battling teacher shortages? Why are we importing teachers from the Philippines?
The real problem with paying workers enough to live on lies with the strangle hold health insurance companies have over politicians. Basic health care paid for through a tax on consumption (national sales tax) takes the expense away from the employer reducing his cost to produce. Health insurance might still be used to cover less proven treatments. When we complain about our health care, it is usually our insurance we are talking about. The millions in costs that are bankrupting our municipalities would also go away.
Life and economics involve choices. Apparently teachers and public employees are exempt from this fact of life. We can not choose a different model from the competitive market model of our critics. If a life of public service appears so appealing, why did these critics not choose it. Or are these criticisms more a reflection of years of politicians telling citizens that they can have good roads, schools, etc. without paying for them. And now voters are shocked to discover there is no such thing as a free lunch?
And why are we in this financial mess? I have two suggestions; the financial mess for State budgets is the product of the reckless actions of the financial sector which has devastated State retirement investments, and the consequent slow down in the economy that has reduced State tax revenues. Meanwhile we continue to have financial institutions that are "too big to fail" and the money is flowing to the Republican Party to stall and destroy any financial sector regulation.
Additionally, the long term problem of health care for retirees is a subset of the larger problem of health care costs. Public employees chose good health care over pay increases for years. When health care costs were in line with the growth of costs in the rest of the economy, it was a bargain for taxpayers. Teachers and public employees are not responsible for out of control health care costs.
That raises an interesting question. Why are the same politicians that attack public employee benefits not trying to solve the health care cost problem? I assume such an approach would help the private sector as well with its costs. Could it be the deep pockets of the health care industry spending millions on millions to alter our election outcomes? Much easier to get elected by identifying those overpaid (data be damned) lazy teachers and unmotivated, uncompetitive public servants who are destroying our fantasy of public services without the bother of paying for them.
As an Indiana resident (commonly called Hoosiers), I would like to comment that all is not well in our great state. We are ranked 49th on the Forbes list for the environment. We are ranked 51st for nursing homes if you include the District of Columbia and I could go on. One of the most frustrating policy decisions is the refusal to move us to the Central Time Zone once we adopted daylight saving time. All of our state lies in the geographical limits of the Central Time Zone. Therefore, nobody in this state gets enough sleep and kids go to school in the dark until May.
As to public employees taking the day off, another commenter pointed out that for teachers that doesn't mean they're not working. They're just working at home.
It's not true that public employees are the only ones who get federal holidays off. Banks are closed when a holiday sneezes.
It's not as bad now that we have ATMs, but when that holiday is your only workday off, it's a pain that you can't get other bank services.
The Governor stated that he is the voice of the people, isn't his people stating their opinion? He is just acting as a dictator! This is not democracy this is the rich trying to keep the wealth and place the burden of society on the middle class. What next the pinkertons?
Most of Governor Daniel's assertions are incorrect. The widespread attacks on public employee pensions has now spread to public employee rights. This is a diversionary tactic to keep the public from realizing that not that long ago, CEOs of corporations made about 25 times what their average worker did. Now it's over 300 times. Not 300%. Over 300 times more. Instead of average folks fighting each other over the small piece of the pie, the sensible move is to re-establish better balance between employees and corporate salaries and bonuses and corporate profits.
As to public employees, I have yet to hear anyone talk about the fact that public employees generally must have more education that most private employees because of the nature of the jobs they hold. Also, the stories about pensions unfairly pick out the unusual cases rather than the average pension. In California, when economic times are good, public employers often do not have to pay anything toward pensions while employees always pay their portion.
It is ludicrous to say as the Governor did that public sector unions are the biggest special interest. That mantel goes to corporations and especially the financial sector.
Let's have more publicity given to the facts than inflammatory assertions
Your show gave more time to the arguments that counter the attacks on public employees than much of the media has, but there is still a huge imbalance. Governor Daniels and the Cato Institute had more time to promote their agenda that the employee side did. I hope you will have more shows on this issue and help provide more balance by giving voice to more representatives of the employee side which I frankly think is the public's side.
Attacks were on public employee pensions have been going on loudly for several years, but now the proponents of these attacks are emboldened enough to make their real agenda clear. The goal is to wipe out public employee unions much as has been done with private sector unions. The reason is the same. Unions are the only organized voice in support of employees that oppose the special interest favoring corporate power. The middle class has been eroding for decades, but corporate interests are trying to wrest what little political voice there is that supports working people.
The large pension plans, particularly CalPERS in California, have been instrumental in trying to get more open corporate governance. And the corporate interests are retaliating with this fight to emasculate Cal PERS by eliminating the money it has to invest on behalf of public employees. Look closely at the small amount of money the taxpayer actually pays for pensions in California. The amount paid by public employees and the investments made by CalPERS is by far where the money comes from.
The problem is too much money is going to corporations and corporate CEOs instead of working Americans who pay a bigger percentage in taxes than the wealthy do.
Gov. Mitch Daniels was eligible for a pension after only FOUR years in office. His contribution: $0.
Just googled for info on WI public employee full costs compared to private sector. Found this link from the Economic Policy Institute:
http://www.epi.org/publications/entry/6785/
...when we compare apples to apples, we find that Wisconsin public employees earn 4.8% less in total compensation than comparable private sector workers. The comparisons—controlling for education, experience, hours of work, organizational size, gender, race, ethnicity, citizenship, and disability—demonstrate that full-time state and local public employees earn lower wages and receive less in total compensation (including all benefits) than comparable private sector employees.
Why does it appear otherwise? Both nationally and within Wisconsin, public sector workers are significantly more educated than their private sector counterparts. Nationally, 54% of full-time state and local public sector workers hold at least a four-year college degree, compared with 35% of full-time private sector workers. In Wisconsin, the difference is even greater: 59% of full-time Wisconsin public sector workers hold at least a four-year college degree, compared with 30% of full-time private sector workers.
These stark educational differences arise for two reasons. First, many public employees are professionals and teachers in positions that require higher levels of education. Second, the movement to privatize public sector work has been accomplished in great part by moving low-skilled work from the public to private sector, where benefits are often more modest.
Cont'd below
Cont'd comment:
This [WI public employees earning less than private employees for comparable jobs] fits with a chart comparing public to private sector pay nationwide (I can't figure out how to post the chart, but it's at the top of the post):
http://skydancingblog.com/2011/02/19/death-by-propaganda/
I was struck that the comparison for engineers (building inspectors, private sector, compared to bridge inspectors, public sector) had the public engineers earning 27% less than the private engineers. Now, considering that in MN, Pawlenty felt he could ignore the warnings of the state (and even outside engineering association) engineers; unfortunately, there was that bridge collapse we're pretty familiar with. I wouldn't mind having the pay rates reversed. Perhaps then even Republican governors would respect the state workers' analyses and act on their recommendations, instead of just reflexively deciding to cut taxes no matter the knock on result.
But, Republicans love Cheap Labor and no or low taxes, no matter how that affects the standard of living of Americans -- or, it appears, their loss of life.
Diane, thank you for this program on the public employees' situation.
On Friday, I tuned in a bit late and didn't catch the names of your guests for quite awhile. I remember thinking you had on a Republican spokesperson along with two journalists.
The person I thought was just giving the Republican talking points was...John Dickerson.
Alas, since so many MCM (Mainstream Corporate Media) reporters serve as stenographers to those in power I guess I can be forgiven my impression.
I was really glad to see you tried to balance the coverage somewhat today.
The unions put the auto industry on life support? (Per caller)
What about the costs of health insurance, which in Japan, as one example, are provided at the government level? There, were workers to be laid off, they still have their health care covered.
For me, I found I couldn't buy an American manufacturer's car when I was looking for a new car a few years ago since the Big Three did not deign to produce a hybrid or good quality high gas mileage vechicle. They were happy to get the easy profits from the gas guzzling SUV's.
So, I didn't buy a Big Three vehicle. Perhaps now they have better models, but I'm out of the market for quite awhile.
Mitch Daniels is wrong! My nephew left the State of Indiana as an IT state employee because he could make far more in the private sector. In addition his working conditions at the state house were deplorable. His immediate boss made degrading comments to the employees on a daily basis. Because of the working conditions and the pay, my nephew left.
Did Mitch forget that the pharma and health care companies funneled over 1 million dollars per day to influence legislation at the Federal level to their benefit. How much does the Koch brothers funnel money into elections to get their candidates elected? The Koch brothers funded the tea baggers with millions of dollars to disrupt public dialogue on health care. When the teacher unions or any other union provide financial support to their candidates, why is that any different? I know, because the best thing to do for republicans is to eliminate the working class for the benefit of people like the Koch brothers, big pharma, health care companies, big oil, ultra rich or any other large corporation so they are the only ones at the feeding trough of the republican elected officials.
I want to state upfront that I am neither for the Republicans or the Democrats nor am I a state or union member. I am shocked first of all that the the Governor is calling the State Union as elite and most powerful lobbyist group.And he blamed them for the "mess" that we are in today. He also said that the Gov of Wisconsin as just keeping his campaign promise. Question: Did the Gov of Wisconsin say that he will stop collective bargaining while he was campaigning? Perhaps he need to update his own knowedge that the crisis of the past years was caused with the marriage of bankers, brokers, financial giants like AIG, some misguided consumers, corrupted representatives of the people and the rating agencies. It was not caused by state employee. I work for the financial institution, i saw first hand the amount of greed and fraud perpertrated by these institutions. The economic crisis was also caused by unfunded and unwanted two wars that innocents civilian in foreign countries and our boys and girls are paying their lives for.The Bush administration commited an illegal act by going to war and not funding it upfront.How is it the previous and current administration could come up with money to bail out the financial institutions that paid millions out in bonus and yet they are cutting funding for the poor? We call ourselves a Christian nation, yet we all about taking from the least of us and giving to the richest
The average American ciitzen must be very careful who they vote for as it is their only, only right. They are in truth powerless and easily manipulated. I feel sorry for the average American. They need to be better informed, educated and be able to try and weed out flasities. They need to understand that the only way they can get out of this mess is be willing to help out the least of them, tax the rich as they have all the loopholes so they do not need lower taxes, give corporations low taxes, but do not give them any other incentives, do not treat them as "real person" i.e. they should not be able to lobby,any one running for office should be allowed to be on media for free and sponsored by state, no private funding allowed for campaigns, get rid of lobbyist, we have a representative government for them to be honest enough to do a good job, they do not need to be bought by lobbyist, stop this ridiculous wars, close all our bases abroad.
Who are we afraid of? Men in caves? Are we afraid of a crazy person in North Korea or Iran? Is that why we spent billions? Let's stop kidding ourselves. The push on fear is the military industry behind this. The average American is not interested in fighting and maiming innocents. Look at the average Senator or Congressman. Check out their backgrounds. Most of them are millionaires. Who do you think they are working for? You and me? I think we are delusional if we really think they are working for us. People need real investigative journalists who speak the truth and is able to provide independent analysis not cranks like Glen Beck who encourage hate in this already divided nation. Fox News should be ashamed of itself. They are playing a dangerous game. And CNN get your act together. Stop trying to imitate Fox News. You used to be an honest news media, now you aim to please the conservatives and the right. That is not your job. Your job is to present news. Thankfully there is NPR. I pray America will wake up and realise how stupid they have acted in this whole mess before we go down as a third world country and it wont be long at the rate we are going. Stand up America for the poor, the worker, the honest and the hardworking. Is that not what the Statue of Liberty represents? Maybe we should take a lesson from Egypt. A revolution is required to get our representatives to work for us not the other way round. Perhaps if all things fail, no one should vote and we will not have a government because neither one party represents us. Then we can get a big corporation to run the country, is that not what America wants? Perhaps then it is in the open, that corporations, big money and the elites are in truth running this country. God bless America.
Unions exist to lower the lowest common denominator. Why are they so afraid of letting their members choose to rejoin every year? It's like having to move just to get out of your Comcast subscription.
Unions don't want votes and they don't want secret ballots.
Unions are notorious for graft and corruption.
The supposed abused have become the abusers.
Having Mitch Daniels on today was a brilliant move to us here in Indiana. Only hours into his first day in office he recended the executive order that had allowed state employee unions in Indiana. That order had been in place for 12 years and although benefits had increased pay was significantly below the private sector. When Mitch Daniels took office he had a surplus of 1 billion dollars. Id like to hear him explain how he squandered that. Do your home work on Mitch Daniels and you'll see what a fraud he is and why public employee unions are a necessity with leaders like him.
Although I've been listening to news about Wisconsin problems, no one seems to have focused on a major contribution of unions: worker safety. The International Ladies' Garment Worker Union was founded because of the need for worker safety, after The Triangle Shirtwaist Factory Fire, where many poor, immigrant women workers had the choice of either suffocating, jumping, or being burnt alive.
About 80 years later, poor black women, working in Hamlet, NC, a right to work( non-union state) died by fire in a chicken processing plant. They also were locked into the building,
My husband, a union representative, working at the Schlitz Beer Plant, in Winston-Salem, NC, defended an employee who refused to make an electrical repair while he would have to be standing in water, with no safety equipment offered or available. The employee refused and was threatened with being fired. My husband said that the area should be drained first, or there would be a strike. The area was drained.
Comment #2 Companies from other states, that were unionized, continued to have union representation when they located in North Carolina, in 1970.
As a school representative, of NCAE, the North Carolina Association of Educators, I was asked to "do something" about the asbestos coming out of the wall in one of our classrooms. NCAE, is professional organization, in North Carolina, and has no status as a union. Because the teachers had been asking for 3 years, and nothing had been done to contain and/or remove the asbestos, I thought it advisable for someone higher in NCAE to contact OSHA, with the request, and not have my name associated with the request. County school executives came to our school to try to determine who had informed. When the work was done, over the summer, the custodian told me that it had not been done in a safe way. The workers neither wore protective clothing nor contained the asbestos, but let it blow all through the school when they removed it from the wall.
Comment 3
Many times I have heard that where there are unions, there is greater safety in the mines. It seems that safety is routinely checked and reinforced, or the men do not work. Where there are no unions, routine safety measures frequently are bypassed to save time and/or money. Some closed mines are never restarted because the cost of running these mines safely would cut profits excessively.
Working conditions, where labor costs are low, tend to be less safe. American workers should not have to compete by working in unsafe conditions in the public or private sectors. Agreeing to salary and/or benefit reduction is not the same as agreeing to not have the right of self protection from dangerous working conditions. Remember that the students were also not safe when asbestos was loose in the room.
hey lisa, further back in comments who was disgusted with detroit symphonists protesting against contributing to health benefit. I'm disgusted too, but at other things. LIsa, I wonder who pays for your health insurance. Whether you or someone who pays for you, where does that money come from? Do you have enough money after housing, food, trans, education, ad infinitum to pay for it, and still enjoy life's extra's? Or do you have anxiety that your family's financial security might be smashed if you get a diagnosis of cancer? Will the insurance cover it? Can you afford it? Please don't be too "DISGUSTED" at the dtw symphony. Thanks.
johnnylane:
USA Today stated that pay is equal to private employers, but their benefits are 60% better than private employer when you add the costs to these benefits.
FITB
Texas which is supposely on the bottom of the list, perhaps it has to do with the increase cost of educating the kids that keep coming over the border, start teachers at around $44,000 in big cities.
As a 1099 employee it has taken me 30yrs to make $50,000 with a Fortune 500 company. Does not sound to bad for somebody coming out of college to start making $44,000.
Bort:
You are sterotyping when you say the Republicans Party is the party of CEO.
I am Republican,not union, Mexican American, make $50,000 a year and pay my insurance for a family of four. Of course I will be paying more due to Obamacare.
HexEnductionHour:
Look at any city that is run by a Democratic Party System for decades and it is a failed state or heading that way. Detroit being one of them.
To think that at one time it was the world's car industry there, it was a beautiful and prosperus city. Now Detroit is a dump, a refuse.
This is not about state budgets or state employees or unions.
This is about the ruling class destroying the middle class and creating an oligarchy.
One day we will wake up to a world where there are only a few rich people and many many poor people.
It's not going to matter if you are a liberal or a conservative or an independent.
I thought that there was time. I thought that people would get it before it was to late. But it seems that the oligarchs have been successful in turning us against each other.
the oligarchs are sitting back and laughing as they watch us cut our own throats.
They laugh at the liberals for having the audacity to care about their fellow man.
They laugh at the conservatives for thinking that they are their equals.
They laugh at the independents for not having a clue.
They laugh because they believe the game is almost over and they will be the victors.
I cry because they may be right.
Listening to yesterday's conversation about public employee unions, I want to share my perspective as a middle manager in a NYS agency with 500 employees and 5 union locals to work with.
I found local union leadership easy to work with and would rather have union leaders to focus labo problems than 500 individuals to deal with separately. Employees need to know that they are heard and union leadership is an additional ear with which management can listen.
However, there must be, in addition to prohibiting public employees from striking, negotiating and problem resolution structures to accompany the need for an even playing field with public employment.
It is complicated, but workable if you concentrate on the object of providing services to the public, your customer.
The anti-union guest tried to make the point that unions for government workers are not needed and cited examples of a couple of states where the state workers were doing well with no unions.
There are also numerous examples of private sector companies doing right by their workers without the need for a union on property. More power to the governing bodies of those companies.
The guest conveniently fails to acknowledge that unions exist as protection for the workers in cases where management is NOT on the same side as the workforce. Unions exist to counter management's proclivity to workforce abuse and in no small way, to counter current managements procilivity towards raping companies for short term personal gain, unfortunately abetted these days by the Supreme Court.
He also resurrected the old claim that unions drove high worker costs and subsequently drove companies into uncompetitivity and thence out of business. There are numerous and recent examples of unionized companies, mismanaged for the benefit of highest management, where the workers could be paid nothing and the end result would still be the same.
One doesn't have to look too far in the news right now to find analogy. Benevolent despots are losing their places all over the middle east. The reliance on the benevolence of management, especially, again, in the context of fast buck business these days, is dangerous for the worker and has repeatedly proven to be fatal not only for the careers and retirements of millions of workers, but also to the health of thousands of businesses.
The declining union numbers nationwide are symptomatic of the decline of the middle and upper middle class in this country. The situation in Wisconsin is snapshot of that and a preview of anti-union government tactics.