State Budgets and Public Unions
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-02-21/state-budgets-and-public-unions
In Madison, Wisconsin protesters for and against Governor Scott Walker’s plan to end collective bargaining rights for some public employees are gathering for a seventh day. State employees have already largely agreed to accede to the Governor’s demands for stepped up health care and pension contributions, but future collective bargaining rights remains a sticking point. The Republican controlled legislature hoping to vote on the Governor’s plan have been thwarted by Democratic legislators who remain out of state. Join us for discussion on the stand-off and its implications budget battles in other states and the nation’s capital.
Guests
Governor Mitch Daniels
Governor of Indiana, Republican
Chris Edwards
Director, Tax Policy Studies, Cato Institute
Ron Blackwell
chief economist, AFL-CIO
Gerald McEntee
president, American Federation of State, County, and Municipal Employees,
Ben Manski
member of the faculty, Madison College
spokesman, Liberty Tree, a Pro-Democracy Think Tank
Comments
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Today is President's Day, if you're off with pay, thank unionism.
Unions have been nearly eradicated by powerful economic concerns that stand to benefit from no minimum wage, worse working conditions, a return to child labor, right to work and fire at will laws. The Bush administration previously tried to rollback overtime and work week regulations. Only 11% of our workforce enjoys union protection, and many of these are employed by government. If government serving unions are broken we will be in the same shape as Colombian or Chinese workers. Unions set the tone and parities for most all workers. If the measuring stick is lost and the workforce atomized look for widespread repression and the melting away of workers' rights.
Our government has not only failed to protect unions and organizing efforts but is conspired with big employers against human rights at home and abroad. Our old line unions have made bad deals playing for time.
If any rugged individualist tells you you should negotiate with your gigantic government or corporate employer alone and that if you are a good boy or girl you will get what you deserve, then that stupid person is your enemy and has selfish servile interests at heart. If you think people deserve dignity and humane autonomy in the workplace, and the assurance that agreements they sacrificed for will be honored this is the time to resist and demand justice. Why should our wages be given away as tax breaks and corporate welfare to the wealthiest people who already benefit disproportionately from government services? Let's cut back on the parasites and chislers, and not those who labor.
UNIONS ARE GREAT IN BUSINESS CONTEXT, BUT BAD FOR GOVERNMENT - PART 1
UNION's absolutely did and do serve a legitimate purpose for the worker in a private employment relationship as they balance the power of that employer against the individual employee and provide an equilibrium that would otherwise not exist. As an example, few would disagree that the workers on the infamous "Gulf of Mexico" BP oil rig deserved to be in a Union to protect them from what happened there.
UNION's do not belong in a public employment environment for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is that public employment leaders (Presidents, Governors, Mayors, et al) are too transient to ever be a threat to public employee rights. During this President’s Day Holiday, millions of Federal, State and local employees are relaxing at home confident of their Chief Executive's impotence and inability to move them out of work on an individual basis. These people only fear budget & program cuts. They are part of a growing problem in our country.
UNIONS ARE GREAT IN BUSINESS CONTEXT, BUT BAD FOR GOVERNMENT - PART 2
How have these employees become so powerful?? SEIU (The Service Employees International Union), a labor union representing professional employees has become the largest UNION in the country and is representing millions of Federal, State and local government employees. SEIU has contributed inordinate amounts (millions of dollars) of money to political campaigns everywhere, supporting mostly Democratic candidates yes, but then leveraging unseemly employment terms and benefits for its members that end up costing all of us (Democrats, Republicans, Independents, et al) dearly. Worst of all, a consequence of the SEIU's disproportionate negotiating power against fleeting public management figures is that these bargaining relationships create an inextricable link to hundreds of thousands of public employees who would not be able to find a job normally in the private employment workplace. See the 1999 Brookings Institute study, deeming 33% of all public employees incompetent or inappropriately assigned to duties.
UNIONS ARE GREAT IN BUSINESS CONTEXT, BUT BAD FOR GOVERNMENT - PART 3
Ask any legitimate senior executive within the Federal Government about their ability to terminate or discipline a UNION employee and they will tell you that it has become nearly impossible without a prolonged 2 year administrative process. I think CBS News had a special last year, detailing this 2 year process with NY City Public School teachers. Many will also privately concede that there is a real problem of nepotism and cronyism within SEIU. Consider these real and ghastly examples.
There is a 26 year old graduate of VA Community College now working for the FBI, earning $126,000 a year. How did he get there? Answer: His Uncle is the SEIU representative at the FBI. Over at the US - Department of Housing, there are at least two executives, earning in excess of $100k before benefits… who take pride describing how they donate two hours per day to "real work" as they've been allowed to telecommute, following successful UNION supported grievances related to the stress.
UNIONS ARE GREAT IN BUSINESS CONTEXT, BUT BAD FOR GOVERNMENT - PART 4
There are many other examples one can find about this situation. It’s a national phenomenon that disturbs a lot of us Democrats also. So, the issue being fought in Wisconsin is not a Republican vs. Democrat issue. It is not a wealthy versus poor issue. It’s an issue of fairness and prudence. The questions are 1) is it fair for UNIONS to have the power they do over the people’s tax dollars and 2) What are reasonable wages and benefits for the public service jobs that our nation, states and towns?
Let’s send home the SEIU Union employees who have come from Chicago and Detroit to stage the revolt in Madison, WI. Let’s get those Tea Party activists back to their homes and off the streets of Madison. Let’s stop being manipulated by these organizations and get real answers and real solutions to the problems that real Americans care about.
To conclude, I want to be clear that I am a lifelong Democrat, but while I firmly believe that UNIONs are important in a private employment context (e.g. Wal-Mart), I believe they do not belong in a public employment context. There are several middle of the road people like me, both Republican and Democrat who are not Tea Party people or UNION activists… who feel the same.
This issue has to be discussed in the context of the millions of dollars that unions put in the pockets of Democratic politicians (with whom these same unions then negotiate their contracts.) So you've got long-term decisions with tremendous financial impact being decided by politicians who are desperate for the next buck.
Why are union members denied their Democratic rights? Why are they not able to vote each year on whether they want to remain a union member? Union members should have the right to write a check for their union dues; and not have them garnished from their wages by the state on behalf of the unions. Unions are afraid of these changes because they recognize how little value they have given all the strong civil service protections in place.
Walker didn't surprise anyone with this proposal. He talked about it all through the campaign and since his decisive victory. He is acting on the mandate the 5.5 million residents of Wisconsin gave him. Democrats should get back to work and allow democracy to work.
Asking state workers to contribute 5.8 percent for pension and 12.6 percent for health care is nothing compared to the amounts most people must contribute. Making more on average than people in the private sector and contributing less is untenable and unfair.
Guess what Grady, I'm NOT off work with pay. The only ones I know who are are government workers. They should be at work today too.
MITCH is quoting statistics to favor him - he is more like Wilson than WILSON!
He twists and bends stats: there are stats THAT DISPUTE HIM!
SEIU is a sweetheart union that colludes behind the scenes with employers and slights the interests of its own workers. It was created by proto-fascists. It arose because the government did not allow real unions to develop in a grassroots manner but advocated for employer interests. I think it is silly that John Mason has taken so much space to complain about an eventuality that he probably embraced earlier. John, you are not informing us about any dangerous outside force. You are imagining "outside agitators" where real grievances exist, and where deserving employees are presenting their case. You sound like George Wallace in 1965. What is the good of a powerless union? If you don't want to pay taxes for services you receive move to a backward state. That's what Ronnie Reagan would tell you. Taking away contract is a step toward taking away Social Security. Pull out enough toothpicks and the sky falls.
Mitch untruths:
State unions donate more than BIG OIL!
Please do not allow the statements of the governor on the phone to go unchallenged. Government employees are not paid 50% more than the private sector. Would you REALLY call the unions the most powerful influence and "special interest" in this country? Please. If the governor thinks that union management is the "elite" in this country then we ought to consider a new definition of elite. Some union management make entirely too much money but they are hardly the "elite" in this country.
A big part of the problem we have today in journalism is that we allow this type of programming to continue, where statements such as these from the governor go unchallenged.
I am a compensation professional. The comment by the Governor that federal employees make more than the average private sector employee is because the average federal employee requires a college degree. This is also true in terms of the average state employee (teachers). The average private sector employee still is an hourly retail or manufacturing worker, not requiring a college degree.
Becky in Cary
Employers, be they public or private, are inherently unified. They do not want to have to negotiate on an equal basis with their employees, so they oppose unionization whenever they can.
The Republicican Party is the party of the CEOs. Union busting comes naturally to them.
So you take the Constitution as literally as Genesis but do not revere its prophets, Washington and Lincoln. At a time of high employment we need to shorten the workweek and give more time off so more people can have employment income. That Governor Daniels needs to count the beans he's given as incentives and tax breaks to the wealthy and big business. They provide only needs and not services. Imagine the nightmare of a completely "piratized" (privatized) state government.
You are right!!! If they are so powerful how was he able to get elected despite the all powerful union special interest???!!!
Your guests assertion that unions are the "root" of the problem is preposterous. State and federal employees are not paid more than private sectors.
This is a ridiculous statement. Please do not let this go unchallenged.
If the idea is to create an environment of negotiation this concept of removing collective bargaining only benefits one side of the aisle.
The real issue here is the continuing "spin" that these newly elected officials have some unanimous mandate from the people.
Don't let Daniels off the hook! You asked exactly the right question: How does eliminating collective bargaining reduce debt? Obviously, he can't answer the question because IT DOESN'T! His fumbling attempts at several replies--none of which was coherent--show what all thinking people, people with critical faculties, know to be true: Daniels and all those following his "rationale" (Tea Partiers, ultra-conservative Republicans, etc.) are wrong. They cannot substantiate their arguments on any level except by appealing to the visceral fears and superficial understanding of those Americans who need to be led and told what to think.
Why is the budget being "balanced" by attacking people who work for a living? There have been many freezes in government wages. What more should be expected of them?
And note that unions represent millions of people. The oil lobby represents a few large oil interests.
Unions elect officials. Unions announce their support of politicians and politican parties. So to say that unions somehow distort the political process is absurd. What the governor may not like is that unions support things like helping people. While he would rather cut wages, retirement, extend retirement age (without making more jobs), and deny insurance to people who have a pre-existing condition.
It's astonishing to me that people in this country who can't find a job, like me, aren't rebelling like the people in Eqypt.
I work for a county government in VA. We are not unionized. It infuriates me to hear people like the governor toss out "statistics" such as the average federal employee earns 50% more than in private industry. When I briefly worked for a federal agency, I actually made less than I had in private industry for a similar job!
In my current job, I would likely be earning double what I do now if I were in a private organization. And our jobs are far from secure, depending as they do on the flucuations of the tax base. In my county, we have not had a raise in three years, part of our retirement has been taken away, and our health costs have risen as well. In addition, positions are going unfilled while those of us left take on their work, which still needs to be done with or without that missing staff.
Many of us went into public service because we felt called to serve our fellow citizens, but we still need to pay our mortgages and feed our families. It is painful to be viewed as a problem rather than an asset to my community and state.
Comparing public sector employees to private sector employees is not an "apples to apples" comparison. This is why the Republicans can shout about public employees making more- the private sector includes all of the Wal-Mart (big box) employees, and others employed in low-skilled, low-wage work. How about a fair comparison of public and private employees who do similar jobs? I bet the pay differentials would level out.
Also, why is the discussion always about taking something away from the public employees- pensions, health care, etc., instead of ALL employees gaining such benefits. Our society is no longer interested in lifting everyone up, but making sure that we are all equally disadvantaged.
Lastly, public sector employees are taxpayers too. They pay taxes, and pump money into the economy just like private sector employees.
I find it interesting that the backlash against government employee unions is often stated in terms of "I don't get "x' in the private sector why should the gov worker get "x"?
This is a result of the continued shedding of pay and other benefits in the private sector. Look up how many firms currently have defined pension plans. Check out the average number of hours salaried American workers work/week compared to other developed econonmies.
Yes, there is much work to be done, but when the Governor of Indiana (or any other state) says that the elites in America are the Unions, that is laughable. Elites are unions? Not wall street, not bankers who ruined the economy who are still make BILLIONs and getting millions in bonuses? Not the corporation who are buying legislators thanks to our activist Supreme Court. Not the Koch Brothers?
A little perspective folks.
Without unions in our past there would be no middle class.
One of the strong reasons the middle class is shrinking is due to the polarity of income in America. Studies at Yale and Princeton have shown that we have greater inequity in income in the US than we have had since the 1890s. The Days of the "robber barons."
Understand who is happening in the context of long term trends.
It is not that unions are evil.
Bottom line: How you can you an American and support removing civil rights from large classes of people?
Dianne!
Love your show, Glad you asked Gov. Daniels some tough questions, too bad he did not answer them. I wish you had asked him what he did about with the public employees unions in Indiana less than a month after he was sworn in.
Article per USA Today 3/8/2010 (within one day of similar article and findings by the Wall Street Journal) - Key Findings:
Opening paragraph - "Federal employees earn higher average salaries than private-sector workers in more than 8 out of 10 occupations...
Overall, federal workers earned an average salary of $67,691 in 2008 for occupations that exist in both govt. and private sector according to the Bureau of Labor Statisticts. The avg. pay for the same mix of jobs was $60,046 in 2008.
These salary figures do not include the value of health, pension, and other benefits, which averaged$40,785 per federal employee in 2008 vs $9,882 per private worker according to the Bureau of Economic Analysis.
My problem with the unions is that they seem to be living in a completely different world than the rest of us. I have no problem with the union being able to negotiate a contract and protect their workers. But, what has happened is that unions negotiate in a vacuum. I live in Detroit and as I watch the Detroit Symphony having to cancel its entire season, I am disheartened. When I read that the dispute is over musicians having to contribute to health care costs, I am disgusted. This is also the case with the teachers unions. No one in my family has ever had a job where they didn't have to contribute to their health care, whether it was a portion of salary taken out for premiums, or several thousand dollars in deductibles.
There are so many people in this country who are without a job at all. People who work jobs where they have no benefits. I am so sick of hearing union members complain about being attacked for being union. That is not why people in the private sector are angry. Unions serve a legitimate purpose, but the union workers need to recognize that they have to make real sacrifices like the rest of us. Times are bad for everybody, including small companies and governments. Take the best deal offered, work the 3 years of the contract and then, if things are better, negotiate a better deal next time.
Has it occurred to this (and other) governors that all these teachers, nurses, firefighters etc, are tax payers too? It seems to me that they are determined to march us directly into the nineteenth century!
Thank you, Diane for your wonderful show.
Comparing the average salary of a state worker to the average salary of the US taxpayer is comparing apples to oranges. Many government employees are professionals; this concentration of professionals raises the average wage. The correct comparison is done between similar jobs in the public sector vs. the private sector.
Further, many state employees are *not* members of a union. At the state university where I worked, union employees were a minority, and many of those "overpaid" union members qualified for public assistance despite being employed full time.
Last, many states that are required to balance their budgets have, rather than cutting spending or raising taxes to pay for their spending, raided the state pension funds to make up the shortfall. And now they're attempting to demonize state employees and retirees who object to being robbed. During my career, I contributed 8.5% of my salary and my employer contributed 12.5% of my salary to the state retirement system. Our system is well funded and effectively managed, and it's still in big trouble because for years legislators helped themselves to funds rather than fight the tax battles.
Diane, one of the wingnuts you're interviewing claimed that America's elites are solely found in our unions and our federal/state/local governments.
Like too many of your peers in journalism, you failed to question why he singles out these easy targets of conservative scapegoating while neglecting to mention private-sector elites who abuse their power and influence at the expense of the nation. These rightwingers are anxious to find targets besides the most obvious ones -- the powerful monied special interests who perennially plunder our nation's wealth and constantly rig and re-rig our economic system to deliver ever-increasing shares of the spoils to themselves.
Your soft-pedaling coverage aids and abets these Tea Party political fundamentalist sympathizers in their crusade against the public sector, collective bargaining, and common sense itself.
Meg in Kensington
In what way is calling someone names helpful to the discussion?
As a resident of Governor Daniels state....he is selling Indiana to the highest bidder. I certainly hope his true colors show as he prepares his run for President. He is NOT MY MAN MITCH.
from Sybil, Michigan - a state employee
State employees in several mid-west states are being portrayed as ineffective and concerned only with their own welfare, dependent on a new Republican governor to reorganize us and make us serve the public - as if that is not what we have been doing for our entire careers.
Many politicians and pundits are trying to pit private employees against public employees, union against non-union. We must not let them divide us. Negotiation is part of being in a union and a part of civilized society.
Wisconsin's governor wants to blame all of its financial woes on state employees and collective bargaining. Wisconsin's state employees have agreed to financial concessions. If collective bargaining is that big of an issue, it needs to be across the board, including fire and police.