Peggy Orenstein: "Cinderella Ate My Daughter"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-01-27/peggy-orenstein-cinderella-ate-my-daughter
Pink is everywhere today. Walk into any toy store and it is easy to recognize items meant for little girls -- sparkly dress-up clothes, tiaras, even pink sports equipment. Some mothers embrace their daughters’ choice to celebrate femininity – especially given their success in the classroom and on the playing field. Others question what princess mania may mean for girls as they become young teens. Still others see the new girlie-girl culture as a product of mass marketing that threatens to consume their daughters. The dark side of pretty and pink: how choices we make for our toddlers can influence their teenage years and beyond.
Guests
Peggy Orenstein
author
Comments
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Fairytale, Disney did not create Cinderella or most of the other stuff Disney gets credited with.
-Bambi
-Snow White
-Cinderella-
-Beauty and the Beast
-Pinnochio
-Aladdin
-you name it, Disney ripped it off from somebody. Disney stole "The Lion King" from Japanese TV.
Other than Mickey Mouse and co., pretty much nothing from Disney is original to Disney. It all comes either from folklore or, like Peter Pan, Bambi and Pinnochio, uncredited or under-credited individual writers. Possibly the worst is what Disney did to P.L. Travers's Mary Poppins. No! What am I thinking? Worst was Alice in Wonderland.
Maybe Dumbo was original. I bet not, though, and if it wasn't Disney's to begin with, you can bet the original was a whole lot more interesting.
This book is a product of Gloria Steinhem's school of feminism - a class war between women. "Cinderella" is a name associated with disenfranchised women, poor women.
This is upper-class women fearing that their daughters aren't towing the strict class and gender lines they would like them to. Status for these women depends on not ruffling the feathers of male hierarchy and keeping women divided is a crucial method to keep the status quo of male power.
Well, Miss Orenstein, the first thing you need to confront for your gender's liberation is the idea that your daughter is yours or anyone else's property.
I am 28 and I was a mormon raised on disney movies, basically. I'm actually very resentful now about the ways in which these fictitious characters and happy endings shaped my false views of the world.
Into my early teens into my late teens I experienced rude awakenings about the ways in which relationships ACTUALLY function and how happy endings don't often exist.
I feel like presenting these sorts of figures to children shape a false sense of the world and inhibit them greatly in our competitive world.
The fairest way to treat a child, I believe, is to be honest with children about the realities of the world and protect them from these false projections of reality.
Thanks for this interview. I hope that more parents become aware of how damaging these ideas are to little girls who wish to be successful in our competitive society.
@Marilyn Dudden: RE:"I grew up feeling invisible, literally because of the effect you are talking about."
Thank you for sharing your experience.I have a precocious 2 year old, and you confirm my instinct to listen hard to her concerns, and who she is.
Again,thank you!
@Sanya: RE:"When the world was ruled by women - matriarchal culture - beauty and glamour were where power lived. Peggy is selling maleness as an ideal for girls."
I largely agree with your concerns(if not your tone) regarding the author's premise, I have to disagree with the idea that in"matriarchal culture - beauty and glamour were where power lived".
It is a mark of power that the what ever the ruling class looks like is attractive by definition.This is why people dress like gangsters, sports champions,movie stars, presidents,royalty and CEOs.
Would the matriarchs be adorned? Of course, as much as they liked. Would they need to conform to any ideal of beauty beyond what they then selves impose?No.
Would that ideal look like the" princess ideal"? Well considering that the "ideal princess" has changed over the centuries, and across the world, I doubt it.
In short, true power doesn't stem from beauty.Rather power is considered beautiful, no matter what it looks like, no matter what the gender.
@d.r.marc: RE:" How can we even pretend that premarital sex is a valid option, particularly for the young? The brain centers for discernment are not finished growing until at least 25"
I respect your position, but I think human history and biology argue against it.
We are physically able to reproduce 15 or even younger, and the historically that has been the age of majority, and often marriage.
Of course arranged marriages were often the norm as well-perhaps this was in effect mature brains making decisions for immature ones...
I'm not saying that any of this is good, but these are factors to consider.
Also, not every one sees or has sexual contact as a "deep knowing", or even aspires to have it so.
In fact the idea that sexual union is that deep or fulfilling, has more in common with the ideals that are behind the tritest of love/lust songs , than historical reality.
That being said, I would not trade my monogamous marriage for anything, but it is we who make meaning out that relationship, not the relation ship that makes us meaningful.
@bumblebee RE:"Pink swishy skirt? Fine. Playacting that Barbie wait for her prince to come? Not fine. "
+1 on this!
We have been fortunate enough to avoid most commercials-with no cable in the house, we still have 3-5 digital PBS stations chock full of cartoons, plus Netflixs,so my girl was very confused and puzzled when she first saw a commercial(they still work on her! That stuff is scary!).
I must say its sort of ashame that your daughter doesn't watch the movies.
Due to societal change the princesses have gotten less and less "helpless damsel" and more and more assertive.
They are all still about getting together with the prince, only now the princess is usually an active participant in the story.
Bell reforms the Beast,educates herself, and defends her father.
Ariel risks everything to be with the one she loves.
Mullan is all, about usurping traditional male roles in society.
The Princess and the Frog-Tiana is clearly the most competent character in the piece,with the prince in this tale staring out as little more than "himbo".
They are all flawed, in my humble opinion, but there is good there.
Flip the script, put a boy in that role,and few would object(even if we should).
Since you are trying to give you daughter positive role models, other films presented by Disney do a much better job than their "princess line".
Any of these titles created by Studio Ghibli, and presented in america by Disney, will have great, nuanced,female role models.The ones that are asterisked ,are suitable for younger audiences(the others are spooky or violent, but never gratuitous)
-Kiki's Delivery Service*
-Princess Mononoke
-Spirited Away
-The Cat Returns*
-Howl's Moving Castle
-Ponyo*
I hope you get some use from this list,and thank you for knowing the difference between girly and helpless.
@Booda9in1: RE:"I am married to a 48 yr. old woman who lives her life by this code."
Thanks for sharing this, your perspective is unique to this discussion...
This phenomenon creates issues not only for parents of girls, but what are we to teach our boys about respect when they are as bombarded not only with what the girls are being presented with, but also the girls who embrace the concept. Respect for whoever you date or marry in the future is something important for my husband and I to teach our son. How do you balance that and all of the girls who will more than likely equate respect as including an entitlement of some form. It will be interesting to see the impact the 'princess' will have on how boys will be able to navigate those wonderful adolescent years. Hopefully 'respect' will be instilled in ours enough to combat the demanding entitlement that we already are seeing in many little girls.
Concerning your final sentence: I doubt it's either one or the other coming first. I believe the two are correlatives in a similar fashion to the chicken and the egg. ~ Marc
As a parent of a almost 7yr old boy & almost 3 yr old girl I got a laugh out of this whole story yesterday. My husband is a 13yr employee of Disney and was adamant about our daughter not getting obsessed with princess stuff! Grandma bought a generic(non-Disney) treasure box of princess dresses. Well, two weeks ago my daughter got into it all by herself. We only own one Princess movie(Snow White), so it's never been "encouraged". (We encourage pretend play.) Now she wears them off-and-on everyday. Sometimes my son plays dress-up too! The best thing is that she will wear the princess dress with a superman cape or carry a lightsaber instead of a wand. Honestly, it boils down to parents raising their kids. Monitor what they watch on t.v., computers, etc.(simple common sense) If you don't want your 3yr old to wear lip gloss, or 6 yr old playing with Bratz dolls don't except them as gifts. Your the parent, it's your right to say no thanks. Time to take my daughter to dance lessons. ;o)
Thanks for the giggles,
Mary
Am still thinking about this program, and the one thing that sticks in my brain that I want to say to the author is "turn off your TV.". I have single-handedly raised almost two generations of girls, a 21 year-old and a 9 year-old. In their formative years the only watching we ever did was movies - no locals, cable, nothing. The only exposure of media was at their father's home, but felt this gave them a balance of social culture.
Materialism is not an expected form of expression here, but imagination and creativity abound. There's no need to impede a child's personality desires, but guide them, you inherently know what to do. If they like the princesses and fairies give them a paint brush, book, sing a song, or put on a play to satisfy these desires of self-expression - active not passive, as in watching someone else live it. And dressing up has never been so insidious rather than expressing the need to experiment and have some girl fun.
We are all so worried about the mental impact "things" are going to have on our children. Just use your own instincts (as no one knows your child better than you, they have your genes, for gosh sakes). And allow your child to form their responsibility of choices, but guide them by your instincts.
Clear all the mental head blah, blah, blah and trust yourself, and nurture your child's early innocent adventures into this world of possibilities - good or bad. They'll soon begin to realize the difference, and trusting their own instincts, making informed decisions about how they want to be as a person, which is exactly what we want as parents. Living in the good 'ole US of A, we are so lucky this is a right we are all priviliged to have - FREEDOM.
Which gives you the right to totally disagree with me, but I do have two very happy, healthy, intelligent, and, yes, beautiful, daughters to prove my theory. Thanks for reading. : )
i grew up during the "disney golden age" i am 22 years old. the little mermaid was my idol growing up. my mom let me play with make up and playing dress up with my friends are some of my best childhood memories. I DIDNT GROW UP TO LOOK LIKE PARIS HILTON! i work in a professional field i dont have self estieme issues. In fact i love my self. i think all these little girls problems come from TV. not disney princesses. shows like 16 and pregnant and secret life of an american girl..celebrities like miley cirus... those are where our problems are. and parents are to blame. not disney. my little sister( who is 16) loved cinderella as kid.. shes perfectly normal. i think this whole interview (although its a wonderful interview) is a little feminist. i think that if a little girl wants pink and sparkles and wants to dress up like her favorite princess she sould. and if a GIRL wants to have a spa birthday party... she sould.. its fun girly stuff to do.. i dont this girls mom forced the idea on her... GIRLS LIKE THAT STUFF! and whats the difference between idolizing wonder woman or Cinderella...?
i have a 3 month old daughter. at both of her baby showers i specifically asked for nothing pink, sparkly, or princess. i wanted my child to have a gender neutral theme, and the end result was not too great. a majority of my daughters clothes have princess, frill and pink polka dots. it is honestly difficult to find anything for a girl that does not have princess, spolied brat, or diva written on it. its very frustarting. i went to sears last week, and they had onesies for 0-6 months, that had diva, princess, & party girl on them. seriously? what message are you sending to your chilrden when you dress them in these clothes?? its like we are sending them little empress messages. i will def. raise my daughter to know that she is special and beautiful, but she is not a princess, and she does not need to wear make up before she is 15. does anyone watch toddlers and tiaras? that is a disgusting show. those poor little girls whose mothers spray tan them, shove false teeth in their mouths, and parade them on stage like pieces of meat.....are they living their fantasy or yours mom and dad??? we wonder why our little girls grow up with eating disorders and body image issues.....maybe its because you are telling your 5 year old she is so much prettier with lip gloss?!
Mark Graff makes a good point: boys are exposed to marketing promotions, with toy guns and violence, as early as two years old.
I can understand the guest's emphasis on girls, but why didn't discussion, or questions, at least touch on the equally (or more) harmful effects of marketing on boys ?
I've been a pilot for 18 years. Years ago it really struck me that I was not able to find any clothes or accessories with airplanes on them for my nieces, as I could for my nephews. I started making items to sell myself, but found that there were many stories coming from people also realizing that there had to be a good reason we were "ignoring" the appeal of flying to girls and women (this may explain why after nearly a century women are still only 6% of the pilot population). I therefore started a nonprofit 501(c)(3) organization to use women in aviation to inspire girls to achieve their full potential, Girls With Wings, Inc.
I have learned a lot from having this nonprofit organization. I hear criticism of my website because it's pink. I don't think the issue should be the color "pink." Or frilly, or flowery. There is a segment of the population who like this color. Telling them "pink" is bad tells them what they like is wrong. Also with the name of my organization, Girls With Wings. Some women are offended by the use of the derogatory term, girls. Really? What does it say to girls if we tell them that what they are is derogatory?
So it's not the color, it's the messages were sending with this princess obsession, which is why our tagline is "Girls need Flight Plans, not Fairy Tales." if they like pink, let them have a pink airplane, if that's what it takes to draw them into nontraditional fields. I daresay that the preponderance of "boyish" airplanes do not reinforce to girls that this is a field that will welcome them and that they can do very well in. We have a children's book, Penelope Pilot and her First Day as Captain, to which many people won't buy for their sons because, "Oh, it's a book for girls." Why, because it has a girl on the cover? What a great thing it would be to also teach boys that girls can be pilots, too!
Lynda Meeks,
Executive Director of Girls With Wings, Inc.
www.GirlsWithWings.com
Thank you Rebecca. There is nothing wrong with likeing pink or being feminine, or at least feminine in the traditionaly accepted image of the word. My daughter loves disney princesses. She also loves cars, my lipstick, playing catch, catching bugs, and doing her hair. Why disect that and manipulate it into labels that don't really reflect anyone? What's important to me is that she grow up having a strong sense of self and self confidense. As long as our children, our girls especially, grow up to see the value in who they are, rather than the way they look, we as parents have done our jobs.
That being said, I will probably never buy my daughter a brat doll. There are incidences where we have gone too far; where sexuality has become something that we use not only to sell shampoos to to 30-something women but also to sell dolls to six year old girls. There is a line we frequently flirt with leading us toward creating a generation of narcissists.
So it's official. Americans believe that all classic fairy tales were written by The Disney Company.
And not one listener can think critically enough to question Orenstein's shoddy argument and tell the difference between the category of age appropriate behavior for little girls, vs. grown women who don't want to use the male ideal as self-image , or puritanical values as defining them and how they look.
Ms. Orenstein's title is a class-war declaration between women because that was theme of the fairy tale she quotes to make a convoluded point.
I would like to hear Diane do an interview of a male writer assaulting masculinity and all its traits for her next interview.
Oh, please. Who lets their kids eat cotton candy 24 hours a day 7 days a week?! My daughter is nearly 5, is well-rounded, loves the princesses, has her ration of 2 hours of PBS or other age-appropriate tv a day (and she's fine with that), her ration of a piece of candy or chocolate each day, brushes her teeth, loves sports, gets huge enjoyment out of the fact that she has discovered she can read and knows that she's a strong little girl even though she loves pink and frills and sparkles.
This is total over-analysis. I just think some common sense is needed and communication with your child. Yes, I agree that parents allowing children to wear make-up and racy outfits and bras is ridiculous, but is that to say that I, as an adult, can't wear make-up? Or dress up elegantly when I go out with my husband?
I agree with the comment that it's a harsh world outside and if these feel good movies let these little girls dream of lovely castles and lovely music and dancing, then let them. I think it's the adults that are over-analysing these movies and images. The kids are not looking at the movies and thinking "oh, I'll need to find myself a prince to take care of me". Do you really think they are?
Just listening, the author says to find alternatives. So we're to do this from birth, eh? Are our lives to be consumed by our children? What do you say to them when they come home asking about the princesses because all their friends have them and they feel excluded and made to feel that way like their peers (and we know how mean kids can be)? Is that not more damaging to a child?
My daughters brain, will and energy was eaten by the "Twilight" series that have taught her behaving like a barely visible vegetable is very cool female behavior.
How about getting women writers who are in tune with what's actually harmful and being sold to young girls in today's mass media, instead of pretending that beauty peagent freaks are not a tiny phenomenon.
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The perfect way to celebrate a milestone moment for a child...Hmmm???
That IS the question.
I have four children who are all now in their 20's.
The celebratory requests during the years that transpired ranged from:
Ice Cream Sundaes (with sprinkles);a new pet;a new sibling; fingernail polish;something to drive;a piercing;a pager; a tatoo;concert tickets;airplane tickets....................... and beyond.
And, in the end it was all about the way they felt in the moment.
Love and support give us strength to venture forward and I can honestly tell you that
90% of the requests on the list did not happen at the time they were requested-
The perfect way to celebrate a milestone moment for a child...Hmmm???
That IS the question.
I have four children who are all now in their 20's.
The celebratory requests during the years that transpired ranged from:
Ice Cream Sundaes (with sprinkles);a new pet;a new sibling; fingernail polish;something to drive;a piercing;a pager; a tatoo;concert tickets;airplane tickets....................... and beyond.
And, in the end it was all about the way they felt in the moment.
Love and support give us strength to venture forward and I can honestly tell you that
90% of the requests on the list did not happen at the time they were requested-
I did not read all of the comments below (there are a LOT!) so I do not know if this was brought up, but I wanted to address this issue as not just a girl/woman/daughter/mother issue. What about how this pink phenomenon affects our boys? Do they grow up expecting this perfection from girls? Look at any newsstand with male magazines, or movies being made, or the porn industry. WHY does this sell to our MEN? Why does every beer commercial feature a buxom blond in a bikini with a perfect body and face? If we continue to teach our girls that this pink perfection is standard, and that it is done solely for attracting/keeping a man, are we not also fueling the fire for what the men in our society expect and want from the women they see all around them? I remember being shocked when I first heard an adult married man say aloud that a younger attractive woman was a "hottie". I would like someone to delve into the realm of how our boys/men come to grow into the kind of people who support the porn industry because of what they deem desireable. When are our boys going to be taught that a woman doesn't have to be perfect and beautiful in order to be worthy and loved? It seem to me our boys need to be educated on the pink phenomenon as well.
To her credit, Peggy isn't suggesting that we ban princesses entirely. A little might be harmless, whereas a lot might be harmful. It's all about increments. Peggy gives her parenting advice in this interview:
http://www.makeitbetter.net/family/parenting/2423-is-disney-princess-cul...
-Liz Logan, Associate Editor
Make It Better, makeitbetter.net
Facebook.com/makeitbetter.net
twitter.com/makeitbetterNS
The constant pushing of this banal assault on feminity posing as feminism is getting tiresome.
Were Ms. Orenstein truly concerned about her daughter, she would be attacking industries such as Hollywood and television's effort to undo feminism by constantly pushing weak, negative, monster-like or simply fade-to-nothing female decorative characters, which do much more permanent harm than the trivialitites that obsess her.
Another honest motherly concern would be a concern about the power of porno industry sensibilities ability to permeate all of mainstream culture.
This is an exellent subject which leads to the question of objectifying women and which can lead to later sexual abuse of both children and adult women. The film "Little Miss Sunshine" also addresses this important and serious subject. Thank you for airing this.
What I see is many young mothers who want their 3 year olds to be 16 and push them to do all the grown up things. Hope there are lots of them watching this.
I understand your concerns but know there are two ways to look at every issue. I choose to embrace the theory that we can be strong and beautiful. My daughter sees that I can run a company wearing pink! I always tell my 2 year old daughter that you are so beautiful and smart...never one without the other. When we watch Disney movies with princesses, I tell her that
"the reason the princesses are so pretty is because they are smart and caring. You cannot be a princess unless you are prepared to rule the kingdom with wisdom and humility."
I used to teach anorexic adolescent girls, who were staying in the psychosomatic unit of a children's hospital. I don't think it was a coincidence - that many many times, when parents came in to talk to me, or to talk in front of their daughters, the girls were frequently referred to as "Princess", "My Little Princess", or other diminutive terms. This especially from the fathers. In that these girls often had issues about growing up, I think this had to have an effect. Other issues that seemed to relate - praise for things like nice handwriting, quietness....
Makes me cringe when I hear this out in public.