Peggy Orenstein: "Cinderella Ate My Daughter"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2011-01-27/peggy-orenstein-cinderella-ate-my-daughter
Pink is everywhere today. Walk into any toy store and it is easy to recognize items meant for little girls -- sparkly dress-up clothes, tiaras, even pink sports equipment. Some mothers embrace their daughters’ choice to celebrate femininity – especially given their success in the classroom and on the playing field. Others question what princess mania may mean for girls as they become young teens. Still others see the new girlie-girl culture as a product of mass marketing that threatens to consume their daughters. The dark side of pretty and pink: how choices we make for our toddlers can influence their teenage years and beyond.
Guests
Peggy Orenstein
author
Comments
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Princess mania is yet another device by which those who would be the American aristocracy to subvert our country's traditions of democracy and community.
Admiration, emulation, and even adulation of royalty and nobility has been cultivated by our would-be overlords for centuries to counter the democratic, egalitarian and community oriented impulses that are at the foundation of so many of our cherish freedoms.
Men, women and children have struggled, lived and died against hereditary power and privilege, and still we and our children have held up for admiration and as models merit-less fictions. Americans should know our history.
I love and cherish my son and daughters and celebrate the strong men and women of our family and community as role models. No kings, queens, princes, princesses, czars, dukes et cetera!
Elizabeth,
Your analysis is insidiously misogynist, as women and feminity have to answer the charge for the selling of products by the advertising industry.
Are we proposing that clothing and personal products shouldn't be sold at all? Or are we proposing that the makers of such products use dowdy models to sell them?
What is so wrong with wanting to dress in a pretty dress or love high heels? Dressing "girly" does not make you a stupid bimbo any more than dressing in flats and conservative clothing makes you a man-hating-feminist.
Society sends the message that dressing "girly" makes you dumb and eschewing all things feminine makes you stronger as a woman. I agree with Peggy that girls are being over-sexualized, but I am tired of hearing that I'm obviously a repressed, non-feminist moron because I happen to like pink, flowers and sparkles.
Women can be feminine, smart and successful. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Peggy's misogyny and motives are instantly revealled in the title. Cinderella is the villain, not the writer of the story.
This was frightful. As a parent, my husband and I are totally against aggressive 'genderalizing' of children AND adults. As with the previous commenter, when registering for our baby shower we intentionally chose gender neutral colors and products yet STILL received all gender themed items. We have a son and almost everything we got from people outside our close circle of equally conscience friends was sports or 'tough man' or tools themed. horrifying.
Needless to say we did a lot of returning.
When the world was ruled by women - matriarchal culture - beauty and glamour were where power lived. Peggy is selling maleness as an ideal for girls.
Anyone out in the world who's been around the block knows that women who think like this always bow to male power and a man's way of doing things.
Focusing only on girls and ignoring boys is only half the conversation and tantamount to talking in a vacuum.
If little girls are goaded into unnaturally sexualizing their identities who is it exactly they are supposedly doing this for and why? Why do we allow it?
Seems like we only had half the conversation here.
My daughter was invited to many princess and makeup parties when she was a child and I always let her go. However, for her birthday parties, we planned things like a fossil-hunting party at a science museum, an art party at a local art museum, and a party where the children were introduced to various exotic animals. I didn't want to isolate my daughter or make her feel different from the other girls, but I tried to introduce her and her friends to other options. Her parties were always a hit with the other kids.
My daughter is now a college student at a top, majority-male technology school where she plans to major in physics. So, while I do think some "princess play" is fine, and I did want my daughter to enjoy being a girl, I think it's up to parents to steer girls toward other types of activities. Most girls, when given other interesting options by parents, will not necessarily choose to play with makeup and princess toys.
"No Damsels.
That is the rule in our house. You can be prices or a warrior or a doctor or what ever, but you may not be a "damsel"...
You must be able, be up for any challenge.
So far this has been harder for my son than it has been for my daughter.
Sometimes I have to chastise myself for being a"damsel", usually when it comes to dealing with things my wife usually takes care of...
My daughter has Barbies and a box of hand tools,she digs in the mud in her tutus, and she lives in a house were daddy bakes and mommy drives the car.
I dance with her to "Once Upon A Dream" , and she leads.
Princesses are what you make of them.Don't make them damsels don't make them bimbos, and you will do right by your daughters AND your sons."
I agree very much with this comment. Princesses don't have to be diva-sluts. Girls don't have to give up traditionally "girly" roles to feel more feminine. I think exposure to both roles is the answer, not saying that "girly" things are inherently wrong, bad or harmful. Liking pink and sparkles does not make me a moron consumer any more than a girl liking soccer or sports makes her a "bad" girl. People have different personalities and allowing the exploration of all aspects is more helpful than the demonization of "girly" things .
The third child, first daughter, Cristin was born in 1972, and I was happy to buy pink, but also happy to see her in blue, yellow, purple, red. She always had dolls and stuffed animals, as well as trucks, cars, live animals, puzzles and lots of books. I encouraged a wide breadth of interests, but would never purchase a barbie doll for her. Of her on accord, she went from frills to jeans, goth for a short time, with a wide variety of interests during her formative years and back to frills and jeans again. She is now 38, married, with a diverse career path. She is comfortable in a wet suit diving and instructing scubae, in crinolins and feathers at costume party, in muddy tights and shirt and helmet with headlamp exploring miles underground, a trendy outfit at a fundraiser. Basically, she has no boundaries imposed by those trying to control my and her consumer habits
Sanya: Anyone out in the world who's been around the block knows that women who think like this always bow to male power and a man's way of doing things.
I agree. Conforming to a man's idea of power and strength does not make women more powerful. Rather, women being comfortable in their own skin (pink and frilly or blue and sporty OR A MIX OF BOTH) is the answer I would like to see.
There are so many aspects of the reality of masculinity and femininity missing from this puritanical images of women sale and the rejection of our own psyches and sensibilities.
Men and women have very different social brains and they compliment each other. One is blunt and the other is subtle. Feminity is a skillful negotiation of power in a world where dichotomy exists and communication and compromise are necessary. Particularly where prestige and social power is in shorter supply due to the physical and political power of men.
This is where girls who see maleness as an ideal always lose. They have no tactics or any hope of developing the diplomacy skill of power allocation, other than that of crude dollar power.
As men gain more influence in a society so ruled by the male-centered and sexist religious right, these girls slide into helplessness very easily as their dollar power diminishes.
@ Heidi - I agree with you. I am the mother of a son and I am very interested in how the reverse happens. Just tuning into terrifying shows like "The Bachelor" (which is amusing buy frightening) illustrates exactly what you are talking about. The Bachelor seems to keep all the prettiest girls and the girls who appear the most needy and wholesome and even one who needs "rescuing" (in his opinion - the woman seems perfectly capable on her own). Its really sad. Recently I watched two frontline pieces on gender ideologies - one is called "Merchants of Cool" and the other "Raising Cain" both very good and focused on the effects of both male and female stereotyping. I recommend them. Good luck avoiding Disney- it looks like we will need it!
@Sanya: "Men and women have very different social brains and they compliment each other. One is blunt and the other is subtle."
This is not necessarily always true. My sister is a blunt, aggressive, fashionable hairstylist who stands up for herself, but also likes shopping, makeup etc. A woman's mind is not always meek and subtle, but can be (and often is) a mix of both.
"This is where girls who see maleness as an ideal always lose."
I do agree with this. Making girls "feel more empowered" by telling them to act like and like things that are traditionally male does not help. It's about the personality of the person, rather than the stereotype. I can be a strong, blunt woman who still enjoys shopping and dressing up. Some girls like frilly things. Some like mud and sports. Some like both. The polarization is more harmful than helpful.
We do want girls to grow up cultivating healthy self-esteem. Therefore I must raise a question which is not moralistic, but psychological, even neurological. How can we even pretend that premarital sex is a valid option, particularly for the young? The brain centers for discernment are not finished growing until at least 25. So how can we expect young men to know the deepest things in a young woman, to have the wisdom which alone makes sex a justice done for her? And again in light of brain growth, how can we expect that young women will even know whether they are known deeply by a young man? Moreover, even in a fully adult brain, the very prospect of getting sex without a covenant is liable to supplant the faculties of discernment, in a chemical cocktail rush. ~ Marc
Nothing is wrong with pink-and-frilly! Well-meaning postmodern types might assure us that gender differences are entirely imposed by society--but only until they have kids of their own. Boys and girls are different, and that is fine and great. My two daughters, three and five, are interested only in girly things: babies, pretending, dancing, singing, dressing up. On the other hand, running, crashing, building, trains, heavy equipment, and dinosaurs don't even get a second look. Fighting pink-and-frilly is a lost cause and likely to lead to big problems in the parent-child relationship. Wouldn't it be better to affirm femininity, to tell our girls that it's OK to be girls?
But pink-and-frilly does not have to mean princess, nor helplessness, nor passivity, nor unbounded material wealth, nor being a sex object, nor fairy godmothers. Our challenge as parents of girls is to supply influences that are both pink-and-frilly and positive roll models. Being a girl does not exclude people from asserting their own opinions, working hard, and accomplishing their own great things! You won't find much of that in Disney's Snow White or Cinderella stories. Admittedly better are more recent Disney tales like Mulan and The Princess and the Frog. The best ones I know aren't Disney at all: Little Orphan Annie and especially Fancy Nancy. As for Barbie, don't even think about it.
I think your experiences are exactly the reason people are concerned about these stereotypes. Parents can overcome them and raise well-balanced children but it takes work. And it hurts boys as much as girls, nor do we grow out of it. In movies, women rarely are the stars, but instead are play supporting roles to men. As to whether the problem is getting worse, just think about the movie roles played by Natalie Portman vs. those played by Katharine Hepburn in her youth.
The question that puzzles me is why adults buy into this. I wish I had a nickel for everytime an adult told my daughter she was cute and my son he was smart, or told my daughter that she was strange for wanting a blue balloon ("girls usually like pink") or my son a klutz for not being good at sports.
While Disney didn't create this problem, they've certainly worked hard to convince us that this is the way life should be, with a plethora of swooning heroines waiting to be rescued by their handsome heroes, and "don't forget to buy the matching accessories" messages.
Good luck and keep fighting to be the person you are rather than the person you feel you're "supposed" to be.
Sanya, in your context I believe you mean complEment rather than complIment. Indeed men and women often fail to compliment one another on attributes that complement. ~ Marc
This is certainly an interesting and timely topic! Based on the interview (have yet to read the book, just got it from the library) I got the impression that Ms. Orenstein isn't denying that girls be feminine, but rather highlighting the dangers of the quick jump today from Princess (with a capital P) to diva/brat/mean girl that is encouraged through advertising. Another interesting factor mentioned by ms. Orenstein is that, thanks to advertising, it is easy to completely divorce the Princess items from the movies, much less the original fairytales. My daughter can tell you each Princess and her color, but refuses to watch the movies. Why does she want princess stuff? Because she watches Disney channel with its ads and has her preschool friends with their pink Princess stuff.
My preschool daughter is in the midst of the pink princess phase, although she also enjoys Disney's cars and Nemo. As someone who grew up hating pink, it has been a practice in trying to balance her desire to be ultra girly without acting ultra "helpless." Pink swishy skirt? Fine. Playacting that Barbie wait for her prince to come? Not fine. I've been trying to balance this by reading books with her that have active princesses (The Paper Bag Princess is a popular one) or active female characters, like Pippi Longstocking. I'm ok with the girly, knowing it is just one of many current likes for her, but I am watching that it doesn't slip into diva/spoiled attitudes. Which I guess is what parenting is all about, right?
Hi-
I have two daughters age 7 and 9 and I think this book is right on target in exploring some of the challenges we have in raising girls in today's world. My girls were in the pink princess phase and they had fun dressing up in lace and frills every once in awhile but that only lasted a short time. I didn't have to do much to get them out of this phase- they figured out that sitting around and playing a helpless princess was boring all on their own. Now they would much rather dress up as a witch or a cowgirl and go on adventures.
I agree that the media and marketing can have a negative impact on our society but as parents we still have the upper hand. I don't have much control over Disney or marketing executives but I can control what we buy and what is allowed into our home. I've learned that saying "no" is a powerful tool and I don't mind being called the "Meanest Mom in the whole world" when I'm standing firm about an issue. I said no to Barbie, skimpy girls' clothes and a loud "hell no" to Bratz dolls. I'll say no to dating and make-up at an early age and anything that doesn't coincide with what my husband and I value.
I admit that media images can be powerful and can negatively influence what my girls think but parents can be the most powerful influence of all. We can allow our girls to focus on Disney Princesses and designer outfits or we can redirect them to movies, books and images about more important people and issues. We can allow endless discussions about fake tans, make-up, pop stars and being "hot", or we can initiate discussions about interesting careers, scientific concepts, math tests and world events.
The best minds at Disney and in marketing don't wield the power of a Mom who turns off the Disney channel and reads her daughter a story about Eleanor Roosevelt. Parents have the power to prevent their daughters from being eaten by the pink princess, whether we choose to use that power or not is up to us.
How about a prequel--"Consumerism Swallowed my Family?"
I whole-heartedly agree with these concerns and am so grateful to hear somebody else repeating the words that leave my mouth every day when my kids wonder why they can't participate in so many indoctrinated cultural practices that take place around them. As an (adjunct) professor (of Media Studies), artist (painter), divorced mother of four (ages 10-18), I feel like a war veteran, who's spent her life combating the onslaught of commercial missiles, corporate front line battering, and marketing mutiny that targets my kids (and all Americans). I am not exaggerating when I say that I experience daily angst and perpetual confusion at our acceptance of this in the name free enterprise. WHY, WHY, WHY, don't we see that our kids' rights to a healthy childhood have been usurped by the "rights" of corporations?
When my kids were young I had them change the station to PBS during the commercials, later they had to mute them. I seldom watch TV now, so when I do turn it on, I'm stunned that these strange and disruptive bursts of imagery and noise still exist. I am amazed that as a progressive society, we continue to accept and adapt to the nonsubstantive and exploitative by-products of over-the-top capitalism, and, as Orenstein points out in her interview, encourage our kids to participate in the insidious dismantling of their own human values, in the development of hollow desires and rampant insecurities, and to step onto the good-consumer carousel whose gears are greased by greed and persuasion.
How can we continue to let this happen? But then of course, how could we ever stop it?
During the interview on NPR the author repeatedly demonstrated her bias against the evils of business propaganda. In fact her central theme is entirely how young girls and by implication all people are subject to being told how to think and act by the great capitalist machine. I can hear it now in those corporate boardrooms "I don't care what our customers want they are going to buy what we tell them too!!"
As her young daughter came home with pink princess memorabilia did it possible occur to this mother that her daughter as young as she was actually has a mind of her own? But in her "compassion" for young girls everywhere she pens this dire warning.
The arrogance and conceit drips from her lips as she speaks and yet the bitter sweet irony is that she will live her entire life unaware of the human condition.
How sad.
Part 1:
I want to congratulate Diane Rehm for highlighting this Princess-Mania issue on her show. Thank you, Diane, for being ever more exploratory in your discussion. I missed the broadcast, and made sure to not miss listening this afternoon on the audio player. I am brimming with things to share with you, and hope this comment box will hold all of my words. I hope to offer a new perspective this issue.
I grew up in, what I consider, the Golden Age of Disney filmmaking. The Lion King was the first film I saw in the movie theatre in 3rd grade. My mother shared her favorite, Cinderella, with me at a young age, but never idolized these films, as they are today. I had old time fairy tale books read to me from infancy. When I got older it was all of the Chronicles of Narnia. So, I have always felt a connection to these parables and seasoned tales.
Growing up my parents exposed me to the fine and performing arts. My mother hosted tea parties with crafts in the summer and lead the Girl Scout Troop. We were always learning at the parties, whether it was a historical lesson or just simple etiquette. Behaving like “a lady” was always very important growing up. I was never forced into growing up, I enjoyed my childhood.
My nursery was blue and mother had stenciled teddy bears on the wall. Once we moved, my childhood bedroom was painted blue, too. I had Barbies, but they were respected. I enjoyed making clothes and accessories for them.
I had boys for friends, but I wasn't interested in them romantically until high school. Yet, my classmates, and the boys on the bus ride home, would make fun of me everyday for being "prude". One time I wore a dress with cherries (read between the lines here) on it, and was chastised by the ring leader. At 11, I didn't know the double meaning for the delicious fruit.
Part 2:
My entire life I have struggled with being a woman of class and inner beauty. I have felt that I had to fight my way through the sex crazed MTV women of my generation, now in our late twenties. Once, I was at a low key party where a (married) girl bared their breasts in the presence of other married couples and personally spoke up about the lack of respect this shows for the girl to herself and others. I was disgusted and shamed for my sex. However, I must to sit back and laugh. This great sexual competition is animalistic, a la the-most-flashy-male-bird-gets-the-female.
A shop called, "The Pampered Princess" opened locally that offers manicures, pedicures and "chocolate masks" for children. Is this what we really want for our young women? I see Miley Cirus and these little divas taking over our younger generation. Look at our female newscasters! Its not a pretty picture. As Ms. Orenstein agrees, the monopolization of these big-screen princess films is only glorifying this behavior. Not only are they ruining a young girl’s self-image, but they are destroying how young boys will respect them when they get into high school. A very scary thought.
Young girls must learn to appreciate their inner beauty and learn to respect themselves as children, so that others will treat them the way they should be treated. These girls need a role model to look to instead of getting caught up in negativity with everything from poor body image and low self confidence. Young girls deserve to see that they don’t have to fall into the diva world and realize that strong women are so much more than just sex symbols.
Part 3:
I am 26 now. About a year and half ago, our local theatre referred me to a family needing a costumed princess at their little girl’s birthday party. They said I was the obvious choice, which made me laugh! "How fun", I thought!! I had an old prom dress, my grandmother’s vintage costume jewelry and the tiara I received as my college’s Homecoming Queen.
This first appearance kicked off what is now the "Kingdom of Azuria". My tiny company uses our main character, "Princess Genevieve", as an example showing that we need to be kind to others, mannerly and always have time for a little imagination. Exemplifying what it means to be a TRUE princess is our goal. The dress, castle, prince and tiara matters little if one lacks the "truth, grace and inner wisdom" - the motto of the Kingdom of Azuria.
We appear at elementary schools, libraries, and yes, private parties, too, upholding and respecting the beauty of womanhood and throw in a little imagination in the mix as well. Our parties use non-trademarked images for plates, napkins, and above all else costumes. Our Princess' iconic gown is blue (and was given to me by a dear friend from her own theatre days), not pink. Azuria itself came form the color "azure".
When I have my own children I plan to raise them in the Montessori method. I use this method in my communication with children, everything is a lesson. Really, there’s nothing more “me” than this. I feel lucky to be surrounded by the people in my life that have helped me create this positive influence for young children, girls and boys alike.
With much respect,
- Jen Faulconer, Azuria Entertainment, LLC
www.kingdomofazuria.com
This is a very important and necessary conversation, the Disney Princesses and pink (Sleeping Beauty is the only princess who wears the offending color) aren't the issue and blaming "girly stuff" just makes us feel good. As a parent I was sure the differences in boys and girls were mainly in how they were raised. As a parent of a girl (14) and boy (12), I was wrong. My kids went through the Disney princess phase, my daughter the princess, my son would fight the dragons. I didn't discourage or encourage, it was play. My daughter is independent and strong willed, my son gentle and caring. My kids grew up with Jasmine, Mulan, & Belle, all relatively strong women. Some have mentioned that feminism is about accepting the choices our kids make, I agree. I wasn't about to make my daughter feel bad if she wanted to dress like a princess and I didn't make my son feel bad if he wrestled with friends. Orenstein mentions the year 2000 as the start of this. She needed to look back a few more years...2...Sex in the City, nightly news discussing certain s*x acts, reality tv. Private acts were thrown out of the bedroom and became acceptable to talk about on our tv sets. And it's steadily going down hill, the more titillating the better, and it works it's way down to our children. Blaming Disney and the princesses is like blaming a nightly dessert for a weight issue when it's too much lunch and dinner.
Besides the major stuff like that it's turning half the children into barely sentient manikens bla bla etc. the worst thing about this is that ALL the outfits are PASTEL.
At 7, my favorite color was deep valentine red. My entire concept of beautiful at that age was pretty much: RED. I got a tube of blood red lipstick out of a gumball machine once, much to my mother's horror, and used up the entire tube in about a week, though, of course, I was never permitted to leave the house with any of it visible on my person. After RED, my second favorite color was yellow, because I thought it contrasted so beautifully with RED. Had I been able to dress myself, I'd've worn my gumballmachine lipstick and a long red velvet dress with some shiny, duckbill yellow high heeled shoes and elbow gloves in the same color. I'd've gone everywhere looking like an ambulatory McDonalds.
Pastel is insipid. Where is the fun for a child in wearing pastel chiffon no adult would be caught dead in? You don't look like a princess in that. You don't look like a glamorous grown up beautiful woman. You don't even look like a child's IDEA of a beautiful woman. You look like a child who wandered into a bakery and got frosted by a hungover cake decorator. And another thing! Why is all kids' food uniformly terrible? You can't raise solid citizens if all they have to wear and everything they have to eat is disgusting and either pastel or neon. Kids need access to top quality chocolate and clothes in a full range of colors most especially to include blood red and duckbill yellow.
I cannot disagree with you more on this. I was told three times this week I have a mans job. I am an environmental scientist
I played with barbie, cabage patch and was obsessed with makeup. I still like to feel femminate but I get down and dirty. All you need to do is tell your children you can doanything. It does not matter if they dress up as princesses. I used to dress in my moms high heels!!!
To Seasley:
Orenstein is FIGHTING for her daughter's right to have a mind of her own, and not one dictated by media conglomerates. For the rest of her life, her daughter will be challenged, as we all are, to have a mind of her own, until she is taught media literacy and critical thinking. And then she will struggle to sustain meaning and identity that is separate from the commercial products and agendas that surround her.
Do you agree that those corporate boardrooms are filled with focus groups trying to find ways to appeal to the human condition, in order to turn a profit? The program of advertising relies on human conditions to sustain feedback looping. Do you believe that Disney has the well-being of your child in mind when they're creating movies in order to sell inordinate amounts of merchandise? If you consider this branding practice healthy, fun, and innocent, then you are correct--this is conveniently not business propaganda, rather stage 1 of a life of consumption. But if you find it superficial, opportunistic and exploitative to manufacture copious amounts of plastic products that a media conglomerate has connected to narratives which appeal to the developing psyche of young children, then propaganda may be the perfect term.
When you say "The arrogance and conceit drips from her lips as she speaks and yet the bitter sweet irony is that she will live her entire life unaware of the human condition," can you see how this too could be interpreted as arrogant?
I am married to a 48 yr. old woman who lives her life by this code. Fully materialistic, wears clothes with Diva and Princess written on them, has more bling than anyone I've ever seen and is a fully engaged shopper! Her recent birthday party was themed "Diva Pricesses" and feature a best bling prize. Her invitations were customer designed with DIVA on the fron and her name was not on them anywhere but everyone knew who it was!
Much of the things I've heard in this show, I've endured already. I don't think parents pushed her to this, I believe she simply was not balanced out with reality in her early years? Her parents didn't have a lot, she just developed this idea on her own and no one ever stopped the madness!
I will be buying this book for myself hoping I can find a way to understand what happened to her!