Rehabilitating Former Fighting Dogs
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-09-27/rehabilitating-former-fighting-dogs
Football star Michael Vick brought national attention to dog fighting. A discussion about the culture surrounding this type of animal cruelty, new advances in canine forensic science and the rehabilitation of abused dogs.
Guests
Dr. Randall (Randy) Lockwood
Senior vice President, Forensic Sciences and Anti-Cruelty Projects for the ASPCA (American Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals)
Jim Gorant
author of "The Lost Dogs: Michael Vick's Dogs and Their Tale of Rescue and Redemption."
Comments
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I have been told that Pit Bulls have a brain that grows too large for their skull and this causes them to become vicious. Is there any truth to this or is it just another rumor to villanize the breed?
I am a upland bird hunter. I have an English Setter that a house pet and trained to point birds. When you can train a PitBull to point birds I will believe that they can be rehabilitated to be a house pet.
With all the orphan dogs in the world, why all this effort to "save" these pit bulls?
I would not want these dogs, nor any pit bulls, living near me.
@bj-from-Kansas:
That is one of many myths, like you said, to villanize the breed. That same brain myth was applied to Dobermans, German Shephers, and Rottiwellers over the years (70s, 80s, 90s) when they were in the media for many issues.
The popularity of a dog breed causes many myths to arise and causes the media to explode for every little issue that may arise. Another myth is that pit bulls have "locking jaws". Every dog has the same jaw structure, just different sizes.
One thing to keep in mind is that the term "pit bull" is a generic term so many people use to describe a certain look of a dog. There are over 20 different breeds that resemble "pit bulls", that are not actually pit bulls.
The term "pit bull" is a generalized term incorrectly used for several different breeds: American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, Staffordshire Bull Terrier, and Bull Terrier. Many mastiffs and other dogs are considered "pit bulls" when they clearly are not. Boxers are now falling into the generic terminology of "pit bull."
Often dependent upon how knowledgeable the person doing the breed identification is, it is not uncommon to see American Bulldogs, Boxer mixes, Chinese Sharpei mixes, Mastiff mixes or Lab mixes labeled as a “pit bull” or a “pit bull” mix.
In fact, the term seems to be a catch all for any dog showing a stocky build and a heavy head. This can be a serious problem when breed identification determines whether a dog lives or dies. It is also a serious issue when compiling the bite statistics that are so popular with the media and the breed's detractors. Many of the dogs out there in the world are acquired via backyard breeders or from Craigslist, and do not have the proper temperament.
I work for an animal shelter in Rochester, New York. I'm horrified, of
course, by the crimes committed by Michael Vick. However, I think
he's being unfairly singled out. To the extent that we participate in
animal exploitation, we are all Michael Vick.
The Humane Society of the United States estimates that about 10
billion animals per year are slaughtered for food in the United
States. Most of those animals are raised under conditions that are at
least as bad as the those endured by Michael Vick's dogs. Nobody
needs to eat animals. A plant-based diet is healthy, good for the
environment, and good for the animals.
If you want to help animals, go vegan. Don't eat them, don't wear
them as clothing, and don't use them for entertainment.
--
Alex C.
The discussing implies that Pit Bull is a specific breed but my understanding is that it is a combination of several breeds and there is variability in what people consider a Pit Bull to be. AKC does not recognize the breed.
Thanks.
Please talk about how Vick's dogs were cared for before the ASPCA did the evaluation. It is my understanding from the Sports Illustrated article that they actually became MORE traumatized due to their "care", basically being treated like damaged goods to be trashed.
Setters are great for bird hunting, however, not all dogs are inclined to behave similarly. If the only goal of having a companion dog is to "point birds", you've got a perfect match. Pit Bulls make wonderful companions and live in houses all over the country with human families. Any abused dog will require rehabilitation, not just Pit Bulls.
@BrettRex:
Yes, the AKC does not recognize the American Pit Bull Terrier-they are recognized by the UKC. The AKC does recognize the American Staffordshire Terrier. Some AKC-registered American Staffordshire Terriers are dual-registered as American Pit Bull Terriers with the UKC; however, this draws criticism from many who point out that the bloodlines have been separate for too long for these to be considered the same breed. At one time, they were the same dog. The AKC, on the other hand, does not allow a UKC-registered American Pit Bull Terrier to be registered as an American Staffordshire Terrier. To be dual-registered, the dog must first be an AKC-registered American Staffordshire Terrier and then it can be registered with the UKC as an APBT -- but not vice versa. (--from bulldogbreeds.com)
Personally, I wouldn't go by anything that the AKC says/does anymore. They also "paper" dogs from backyard breeders. They claim that they do not "support" backyard breeding, yet they take money to print out "papers" for horibbly bred dogs from backyard breeders. Backyard breeders do not breed dogs for the betterment of the breed; only for the all might dollar.
One consequence for Michael Vick's horrific involvement in this cruel treatment of dogs could be for him to be required to work for the humane society learning how to take care of abused and neglected animals. Maybe this would effect a change in his heart.
It's interesting to me that there is such a unanimous public outcry when it comes to the treatment of dogs, up to the point where we have laws outlawing cruel behavior of them; yet when it comes to the way we treat animals that are used for food production, no one seems to care (except for some small groups of animal rights activists). Why do we stop caring when it comes to chickens, pigs and cows?
I adopted an adult pit bull fifteen years ago and had her around my four children when they were small. She was one of the best dogs I have ever had, but she was always fearful of violence, loud noises, and strangers. I have much more concern about the standard poodle and German shepherd that I now own around children and strangers- pit bulls are not a violent breed. Sara Dorothy Anne, as my children named her, was a great family pet, loved my cats, and guarded my children.
@Anna Murray:
That is a good question. I am just taking a wild guess at it, but I think that it is becasue dogs are family pets/companions/family members, depending on how you look at it. Sure, farm animals can be family pets also, but that is not looked at as the norm. Dogs, cats, birds, small furry mammals are family pets and kept in the house. Cattle and the like are usually kept outside and seem to only be there for the consumption by humans.
I don't eat meat due to the cruelty of farm animals, and you are right that meat production animals do not get the same attention as abuse to dogs. I think it all boils down to the fact that dog is man's best friend. Cattle are man's food. Big difference.
I have a friend who has been an ER nurse for many years. She mentioned the majority of dog bite victims she has treated are the result of pit bulls and usually pit bulls over the age of 2 years. The age is indicative of a dog reaching maturity and hormonal changes at that time.
Is this consistent with any findings you have?
I also know of someone who was running on a beach. A couple of pit bulls took up behind her and started seemingly play nipping at her heels. She wasn't worried until they began to attack. First one going at her, then the other to relieve the first. Gratefully, she manage to crawl into shallow water; someone heard her cries for help and drove the dogs away. She survived with puncture wounds everywhere on her body except her face.
Is this a typical behavior of pit bulls? Or, simply the pack instinct of any breed especially if it had been used in some fashion as a guard dog?
Look forward to your answer on air.
I've had pit bulls in my life since the 1960's and as it turns out when my father's mother and dad homesteadede in New Mexico they traveled with a pit bull accrossthe plains. to Roy NM. in 1903.
My daughter and son=in-law had 5 Pits until the all died of old age. They are loyal dogs.
The only bit I ever had was from a small dod. AndI Dob s,and wolf dogs
I've had two bad experiences with pit bulls. Both involved low-income uneducated young white women. They were inexperienced dog owners who have no business owning this type of breed. Personally I love dogs and this dog has the capabilities of being a very good dog but it is very cunning. This is a dog that needs to be owned by someone who knows how to control/train a dog.
@Kif:
I am not an expert, but have had pit bulls/mixes for many years, are part of a nationally known pit bull rescue/advocacy group, and have also been studying the actual American Pit Bull Terrier breed, and its cousins for many years.
More than likely, your friend is truly unaware of the breed of dog that bit the victims. If she is like most ER nurses, she only receives 3rd party information from who brought in the dog bite victim. As I mentioned earlier, there are 20+ breeds of dogs that people call "pit bulls". It is only identified based upon characteristics and what the media wants us to believe a pit bull is. Many dog attacks occure due to lack of socialization, lack of spaying/neutering, lack of proper care, and lack of knowledge of warning signs. No dog just bites for any given reason. They let you know something is wrong prior to biting. Most people just don't pay attention, shrug it off, or just simply don't know what to look for.
As a dog matures, hormones can play a factor in behavior, but that is generally reserved for unaltered dogs (meaning they have not been spayed or neutered). Dogs are going to be dogs, no matter what the breed. As dogs get older, they tend to have ailments and pains (just like we do) that can be a reason a dog bites. If they are in pain, they can't tell us. They show us by crying, nipping, and sometimes biting.
As for the couple on the beach, that is not typical behavior of pit bulls...that can be typical behavior of any dog. People running tends to cause dogs to give chase. Running just riles up the dog even more. Again, this comes down to were those two dogs actually pit bulls? Probably not. Unsocialized dogs in groups can gravitate to a pack mentality, just as humans do (aka mob mentality).
One of the guest on the show responded to a comment that a caller made about the need to legislate/control the breeding of pit bulls by saying that he 'sees no difference between pit bulls and other dogs', suggesting that the call for regulation on dangerous dogs is unnecessary.
In disagreement with the guest's response, it seems that pit bulls, as with many type of dangerous breeds, were bred for aggression and strength. Also, all animals have that element of uncertainty in behavior - something that might trigger aggressive behavior. The difference between a poodle getting aggressive and a pit pull - or any other type of dangerous dog - is that most people cannot stop a large, aggressive breed short of shooting them. I wonder if that guest would trust leaving his child alone with a pit bull or a poodle? And what about when we are out doors in public and other people are walking around with a large dangerous breed. Do you trust people to always do the right thing? If the dog attacks, are we prepared to fight off a 55lb pit bull? That's the difference, that's why we need legislation.
@juliska:
Can you ACTUALLY confirm that the dogs were truly American Pit Bull Terriers? Unless you bred the dogs, you cannot. Pit bulls, and their cousins are not cunning dogs as you say. That tells me that you do not know a thing about the breed or its cousins. They may be strong dogs, but they also want to please. They are clowns and lap dogs. It is all in how the dogs are taken care of, and that applies to ANY BREED OF DOG. Look at small dogs. Carrying a dog around in a purse is not the way to take care of a dog. I could go on about many different breeds and sizes, but that isn't the point here.
There are MANY breeds of dogs that uneducated people (no matter what race) should not own. Owning a dog isn't simply having a dog in the house or in the yard and not doing anything with it. Owning a dog requires obedience training, vet visits, loving the dog, etc. etc. People get dogs for status symbols and for other unscrupulous reasons. That is why dogs act the way they do. It isn't the breed...it is the human on the other end of the leash that causes the problems.
Most of us are not skilled to own a bobcat or a bear. Granted, those are not the same as dogs, but it is the same general concept. You have to do research and be committed to your animal 200%. They are not lawn ornaments or trophies.
@ruebnrvh:
"Pit bulls" (generic term for over 20+ breeds of dogs), were NOT bred for aggression. Their history goes back to being bred for bull-baiting, and then for herding livestock, and hunting. That is just a few of the things in their history. It wasn't until the blood sport of bull-baiting was outlawed that they were bred to fight other dogs.
Pit bulls and their cousins can be dog/animal aggressive, but that is completely different than being human aggressive. These are dogs that had to be bred to be friendly to humans, so that the owners could reach in the pit in the heat of battle to remove their dog and not be bit. Any dog that bit, was culled on the spot.
There shouldn't be any legislation to ban ANY breed of dog. Just like people, each dog is an individual. We no longer exclude different races from certain communities, cities, and states just because of some bad apples. Same applies to dogs.
Dogs react as they are treated, just like humans do. If you beat a dog, keep it tied up outside, ignore it, do not spay/neuter, and basically treat it like garbage, it is not going to be a good dog. If you take the time to properly care for your dog and keep it is a family member, that is exactly what you have.
You can't trust people to do the right thing for anything. I can't trust most people driving, but does that mean we should ban cars? No. It has to be based upon each individual owner and dog on what is right and what is wrong. If laws would be enforced, and owners of aggressive dogs harshly punished, then things may change. But until then, things won't change, and the breeds of dogs that will make the spotlight will continue to change also.
>>> [my] English Setter [is] a house pet and [points] birds. <<< -RFB
hey, rfb! :--)
Beagles, Pekes, Danes and Greyhounds won't point birds, either -
yet most Setters, Goldens, and Labs from hunting-lines will do so at 49-days age.
behavior is heritable - various breeds have differing selected behavior.
* predatory behavior is part of hunting -
i've seen UNtrained Engl-Setters or Engl-Pointers or Red-Setters jump and take a bird from the air, killing it.
* human-aggro is not the same as dog-aggro -
former-fighting breeds CAN have dog-aggro individuals, but not all will be dog-aggro;
and the huge majority are *not* human-aggressive.
early 'dogmen' [1600 thru 1920s] killed pit-fighters that bit people - culling was immediate.
* the current Boston [Bull And] Terrier WAS ORIGINALLY known by a number of breed-names, including Yankee Bull-and-Terrier, etc;
they were a pit-fighting breed, and the largest fought in the over-60# weight-class.
Bostons can still be dog-aggro [individuals] and it's most-often seen in males [big surprise, LOL - testosterone lowers reaction thresholds and increases the intensity of aggressive behavior].
* over 80% of all APBTs [breed] and AmStaffs [breed - same foundation stock in both, 2 different registries]
PASS their first try in the American Temperament Testing Society - higher than any other breed.
>>> When you can train a PitBull to point birds I will believe that they can be rehabilitated to be a house pet. <<
> - RFB
a Cavalier King Charles or Chihuahua won't point birds, either.
this is a straw-man argument. ;--)
cheers,
- terry
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
>> With all the orphan dogs in the world, why all this effort...? << - eustica
saving *vicks* ex-dogs was possible because of his fortune; it funded eval, transport, vet-care, rehab, and foster-care - plus desex, vax, and placement into homes, in some cases with follow-up training.
he did not 'just' fight dogs;
one dam had ALL of her teeth removed - to prevent her defending herself,
or aggressing against males during breeding. [done by a VET - walking scum, IMO.]
dogs were tortured; the concrete edges of a swimming-pool were deeply scarred by dogs who were cabled to car-batteries and shocked as they desperately clawed for purchase, then drowned.
dogs were strangled - not just 'killed'; PUNISHED for losing.
personally, i wish *vick* a long decline into poverty, and lifelong nightmares.
>> I would not want these dogs, nor any pit bulls, living near me. << - eustica
>
Doxies, Chihuahuas and JRTs -BITE- more often than the average pit-type.
Cocker Spaniels are notoriously snappy; many must be muzzled by groomers.
the biggest problem i see in USA-dogs is lack of training, socialization and habituation -
which affects EVERY breed; 90% of all pet-dogs in the USA get zero training -
other than house-training [if they are allowed indoors] and Sit For A Treat;
not walking nicely, recall, or other helpful control-type cued behavior.
requiring basic-manners and a CGC certificate on every pet-dog would eliminate
99% of serious problem-behaviors; requiring minimum knowledge of dogs
*before* allowing adults to get a dog, would be helpful, too.
just as any fertile human can breed [sire or bear a child] however ignorant
and however poor their parenting skills, anyone with the $$ can buy a dog -
or be given a dog or pup.
ignorance is the enemy - not the dogs.
JMO,
- terry
terry pride, APDT-Aus, apdt#1827, CVA, TDF
Just some personal experiences and observations on this issue, and a concern to save this breed from human ignorance and willful cruelty.
I pastured two llamas in Oracle, AZ. A neighbor rehabilitated a pitbull from a shelter and found her to be loving and responsive, eager to please. I met her, she was adorable. The dog slipped her yard and ran with the llamas, escalating into an attack , damaging the hoof of one, and causing the other to be euthanized. The vet which came to see if the hindquarters of the llama could be reconstructed, commented that '95% of her calls were pit bull damage to livestock - something triggers in the chase, and there is an attack.'
Next, after moving to Tucson , I rescued a small dog and attended(for several months) a small dog park next to a large dog park in which there were 6 attacks by pitbulls on other dogs. (The most successful way to stop these seems to be to lift the pit up in the air by its hind legs )Of the owners I observed that were involved in these accidental fights involving good pets just suddenly acting 'out of character' ,none were people I would judge as poor owners or lacking in love. They were stunned by the events. Most had rescued these dogs from the shelter as pups.
Finally, a woman with a thin and scarred black lab brought her large dog into the small dog park because it was frightened of large dogs. Her dog was a recent rescue from a pit bull fighting establishment , she had been used as bait. Owner said that labs are used as bait stimulation because of their docile temperament , they do not fight back effectively and do not therefore damage the fighting bull. This woman told me that the best fighters are bred , the pride of the litter is kept, and the rest are taken to the dog shelters as pups.
Let us somehow stop this ignorance and restore this beloved breed to the nation's trust .
@ad:
You want to restore this beloved breed to the nation's trust, which I guess means that you like the breed somewhat, yet you post negative stories about dogs that you claim are "pit bulls", and may very well have been some other breed of dog that resembles pit bulls.
As for the comment "none were people I would judge as poor owners or lacking in love. They were stunned by the events.", as what many owners say when their dog does something "out of character". If they really KNEW their dog, knew their behaviors, knew their threshhold levels, they would know that something caused their dog to react in a negative manner. Dogs just don't snap, as so many people say.
You cannot "judge" anyone by anything. Unless you lived 24 hours a day with that family, you don't know anything that would go on with them and how they treat the family pet. Also, were the dogs pit bulls?
You also cannot "judge" a dog's behavior on what goes on at a dog park. Dog parks are the worst places for ANY breed of dog. It consists of owners who don't typically know any form of dog body language, talking/texting on their cell phone, and have a bunch of unknown dogs mixed together. ANY BREED CAN ATTACK ANOTHER DOG. Not every dog out there likes every other dog, contrary to what many dog owners think. My dog doesn't like dogs coming directly into her face. I don't like people in my face either. Stories are abound here in my city of dogs attacking dogs in the dog parks. All different breeds are involved.
Keep in mind...dogs chase after animals that run. Doesn't matter what breed of dog and what animal. Dogs will give chase. That is their natural instinct. I am sorry about what happened to your llama, but that could have happened with any medium to large size dog. Smaller dogs would have given chase, but not caused as much damage. Could have happened also if they were coyotes or wolves. Don't fault the breed.
It is interesting to see how peoples' negative attitudes toward this 'breed' have appeared and grown. Back when the Little Rascals movies were shot their dog was a 'Pit Bull' and Pit Bulls were the most popular breed in the USA.
I recognize that negative comments toward the breed, though sincere and strongly felt, are at least partly unfortunately misinformed and misplaced. Now the events people described are, I assume, true and accurately described. However, as was mentioned previously there is no such breed as a 'Pit Bull' in the United States. So while a dog did ... identifying it as a 'Pit Bull' is not an accurate description. The American Staffordshire Terrier is probably the closest real breed to what is commonly called a Pit Bull but still and all as a breed they just don't exist.
If you think you know what a Pit Bull is I challenge you to take this quiz it is called 'Find the Pit Bull' and it is located here. http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html.
One final personal note. I have a 'Pit Bull' sort of dog. His mother was a slut and his parentage is of an uncertain mix. He is large (over 100 lbs) most 'Pit Bulls' weigh about 40-60 lbs. He is strong and he is the most 'touchie' dog I have ever owned. Now let me explain what I mean by touchie. I mean he wants to be in almost constant physical contact with me. He sleeps with me. He sits close to me. He leans on me. If you are looking for an aloof dog, based on my experience, don't get a Pit Bull.
For people who are open to learning more about the risks of dog attacks I would suggest reading 'Dogs Bite: But Balloons and Slippers Are More Dangerous' by Janis Bradley.
At least anecdotally, small dogs are more apt to bite but the bites go unreported. In the end does the damage done by small dogs collectively exceed that done by large dogs? My point is I believe it is very hard to get a good read on which dogs are the most likely to bite, because of disparity in reporting.
I've heard nothing of the sort....But what is true is that Pit Bulls' jaw muscles differ from other breeds, causing them to bite much harder. Their jaw muscles go up from the mouth to the top of the head (causing the 'dip' in the middle of their head), where as other breeds' are only 1/3 or 2/3 of the Pits'.