Environmental Outlook: Electric Cars
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-07-06/environmental-outlook-electric-cars
The smart fortwo electric drive made its debut in the United States in June 2010.
smart USA
The Chevy Volt and other plug-in cars could revolutionize the auto industry. As part of our ongoing Environmental Outlook Series, how electric cars could reduce our dependency on fossil fuels.
Guests
David Shepardson
Washington bureau chief, The Detroit News.
Dave Goldstein
President of The Electric Vehicle Association of Greater Washington, D.C.
Robert Bryce
managing editor, Energy Tribune and author of "Power Hungry:The Myths of 'Green' Energy and the Real Fuels of the Future"
David Sandalow
Assistant Secretary for Policy and International Affairs at the Department of Energy, author "Freedom from Oil;" served as an assistant secretary of state and senior director on the National Security Council staff in the Clinton administration
Comments
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Oil is a FUEL that is burnt at an efficiency of approx 15%...
Anyone trying to put forward the idea that rare earths are anything like the same economics as oil is simply a charlatan or uneducated or has questionable motives
Batteries are a DURABLE product with a usable life measured in decades. Batteries are also 100% recyclable.
As for the permanent magnets in EV motors, that's TOO EASY.... use induction motors like 90% of the AC electric motors used in the world. The most exotic materials in an AC induction motor are copper, aluminium and high silicon steel.... ALL freely available on the open market and 100% RECYCLABLE!!
Additionally, Lithium batteries contain only a few percent of Lithium. The Nissan Leaf Battery pack weighs around 600 pounds and contains around 9 pounds of lithium. 1% Lithium
http://green.autoblog.com/2010/05/27/details-on-nissan-leaf-battery-pack...
On a similar note, ten year old Toyota Rav 4 Electric vehicles have ranges of 100 miles running on 15 year old Nickel metal hydride (NiMH) technology that Chevron (an oil company) refuses to be allowed to be manufactured and are sitting on the patents
The Tesla has close to a 250 mile range.
Amy Prieto at Colorado State has a Li battery technology that is being developed by a venture capital company with very high energy density and fast charging. MIT and several other universities have the same.
I would call into question Mr Bryce's motives and knowledge and agenda from his "Five Myths" column in the Washington Post both about distributed renewable energy and Electric vehicles.
Mr Bryce states
"“And they are not going to spend $25,000 on a Prius just to save $25 every time they fill up their gas tanks.” (May 4, 2005)
I have SAVED $6,211 on gasoline because I have a 45.64mpg Prius instead of a 21MPG previous car in 85,500 miles
Here we go again. A year or so from now, we'll be adding "Who Killed the Electric Car: The Sequel" DVD to our wish list with our favorite on-line retailer. The oil barons, through their worldwide private central banks won't allow this concept and vehicle to prosper.
The average working American can barely afford their buy here/pay here payments for their used vehicles. The initial Tesla’s are unaffordable for most of us.
Eventually, we’ll be paying $5-7 per gallon of gas to go to that job that we can’t stand, only because there are no other options out there.
Wake up and study the 16th Amendment to the Constitution, which is a direct result of the dubious Federal Reserve Act of 1913.
Electric cars do not solve our energy problems. The energy must still come from someplace. The large central generating plant, which supplies most U.S. consumers, may be powered by coal, oil, natural gas or nuclear. Solar or wind are very small contributors and will not be significant sources in the foreseeable future for a number of reasons. On the technical side, solar does not work at night or when it is cloudy or overcast. And wind does not work when it doesn't blow sufficiently strong, about 8 mph minimum. And there is presently no way to store this energy and to do that a multiple of collection facilities is required along with the multiple capital costs. In short, only nuclear will provide a technically viable alternative that doesn't add to global warming and the militants won't allow that option. We are in trouble of our own making.
Electric cars do not solve our energy problems. The energy must still come from someplace. The large central generating plant, which supplies most U.S. consumers, may be powered by coal, oil, natural gas or nuclear. Solar or wind are very small contributors and will not be significant sources in the foreseeable future for a number of reasons. On the technical side, solar does not work at night or when it is cloudy or overcast. And wind does not work when it doesn't blow sufficiently strong, about 8 mph minimum. And there is presently no way to store this energy and to do that a multiple of collection facilities is required along with the multiple capital costs. In short, only nuclear will provide a technically viable alternative that doesn't add to global warming and the militants won't allow that option. We are in trouble of our own making.
Where is the technology for standardized swappable batteries?
Is there any plan for government support of local gas stations to distribute swappable batteries? This would address the issue of displacing their petroleum business with the electric vehicle business.
Electric cars can be charged by solar, wind, wave power, current power, geothermal which can be available 24 - 7. We need to promote these safe, dispersed forms of renewable energy. Nuclear died not because of "trouble makers" like me, but because Wall St decided nuclear was too risky an investment. Witness the multi-billion dollar plants that were never finished.
There have been a variety of reasons why electric vehicles (EV's) have not been deployed into the market, not the least of which has been the lack of supporting technology and infrastructure to enable long-range travel and to charge EV batteries.
Probably the best means to do these is by linear motors imbedded in the roadway and inductive power coupling, respectively. The former can be used to propel EV's without relying on batteries, enabling essentially unlimited range. The same system can easily be used to move traditional vehicles by simply retrofitting the undercarriage with an aluminum plate. Aircraft could be taxied with this same technology.
Inductive (wireless) power can be used to recharge EV batteries without the need for plugging-in. Such a system is already in use for public buses in Genoa, Italy. Inductive power can also be used for aircraft to enable emission-free idling on the tarmac.
So, rather than waste our time and resources developing plug-in hybrids and new battery technologies, why not use existing technologies such as these to help jump-start the EV revolution and begin serious progress toward reducing vehicle emissions and oil dependence.
Why isn't anyone talking about the Think EV cars, which is a European manufacturer who bought the Ford EV product? Also what about the Riva electric car from India? this is a mass produced car. Why can't we get this car in the US?
Why isn't anyone talking about the Think EV cars, which is a European manufacturer who bought the Ford EV product? Also what about the Riva electric car from India? this is a mass produced car. Why can't we get this car in the US?
If the government has to subsidize the production of these vehicles, then it is not a good idea. It will only cost consumers and tax payers more money! If private enterprise does not want to invest and produce electric cars, then there is a problem with this idea!
See: SAVEOURECONOMY.WEBS.COM for real economic solutions.
If the government has to subsidize the production of these vehicles, then it is not a good idea. It will only cost consumers and tax payers more money! If private enterprise does not want to invest and produce electric cars, then there is a problem with this idea!
I have to agree with ProfEngr, who pointed out that the energy for electric cars still has to come from power plants, most of which which burn fossil fuels or use nuclear, both of which create problems of their own.
In addition, the technologies discussed so far are decades away from widespread adoption, if they get built and adopted at all.
Rather than focus on one magic bullet to replace fossil fuels -- i.e., putting all of our eggs into a different basket -- what about a diversified energy/transportation solution?
For example, what about the humble bicycle? It requires NO energy, produces NO emissions, is inexpensive, is easy to build and maintain, and millions of people already have one in their garage.
In addition, it provides health benefits, such as combating the current obesity epidemic. It also alleviates traffic jams and parking problems.
Can we have a discussion of bicycle solutions, perhaps to coincide with the end of the Tour de France? Thanks!
I was interested to hear of the early articles about the demise of electric vehicles going back to 1911. My grandfather, Albert Rudes, ran a garage around then which repaired and recharged electric tour buses in Washington, DC until the electric fleet was replaced.
Family lore doesn't include the reasons for that changeover, other than the increase in the use of cars using gasoline, which was cheaper, and made more money for oil companies and and vehicle manufacturers.
I'm part of the pent-up demand for EV's. I'm sheparding my 98 Saturn, waiting for an EV, probably a Leaf. Aside from saving money, polluting less, and charging from solar panels to get essentially free fuel, I really look forward to sticking it to the oil companies.
I also think ev's directly supports American national security. Right now I have a bumper sticker on my hybrid that says "I'm supporting our troops by getting 45 mpg" . On my new ev, it will read "I'm supporting our troops by driving electric"
The design of the EV1 is by far GM's most valuable asset.
Within a few short decades we will be transitioning from energy from coal, oil, natural gas and nuclear to energy from wind and solar - probably 65% from solar and 25% from wind, and the rest from hydro and geothermal. Since wind and solar are non-dispatchable, meaning you have to take all of the energy when it is available, it needs to be transported, over transmission lines, to where it can be used, or stored, mostly in pumped hydro-storage, for when it can be used. Some will also be stored in electric car batteries.
Driving an electric car is like buying gas for 60 cents a gallon, and converting a car to natural gas is like being able to buy gas for about $1.60 a gallon. Most cars will be converted to natural gas or electric. The alternative is not going to happen - gas for $10 or $20 per gallon. Remove the demand for gasoline and gas will drop to $1 per gallon.
JeffB,
If the government has to subsidize education, should we do away with it? No. If the people, thru our gov't, choose to support clean technology, let us. If business wants to produce polluting cars, and not give a hoot for those of us with a hard time breathing, then to heck with them. Make them produce zero pollution cars, like EVs.
Battery power is reduced significantly as temperature drops, are lithium ion batteries immune to this phenomena? Are these vehicles viable in cold climates and or winter conditions?
When the power grid is interrupted due to weather, thunderstorms, ice storms for several days at a time , what are the alternatives to the 100% electric vehicle owner?
How do you evacuate the population of New Orleans during a hurricane when electric power becomes unreliable?
Here is the question no one is answering.
If I get caught in traffic and I run out of battery what do I do? All of us have been in the position. With a gas car we can get off the next exit and fill up, get gas from a tow truck or at worse walk to the next station an get some gas in a container. What happens when you run out of "gas" with an electric car? Get it Towed and wait several hours to charge? We need "Swappable" battery stations in order to keep moving. This would mean having a standard for batteries which I don't see happening soon. The electric car will not be economically viable till we solve this issue. If I have a friend that lives 125 miles away and my car only does 100? people need a way to fast charge.
Edit: He just mentioned Quick Charge of 10 mins - again this would only work if the batties were standardnized. I might work with my Ford but not with some elses Tesla.
I think the only way the EV will be viable in this country is with a battery capable of going at least 150 miles per charge, and the ability to plug the car into the garage, with a rooftop solar panel to power the outlet.
Deregulation of electric companies here in Texas has not resulted in the promised competition-driven fall of prices, and lots of folks can barely meet their electric obligations currently. Solar appears to me as the safest, easiest and most economical solution.
If I had the money, I would start researching how to set up charging stations in major metro areas, using solar power captured on site. This could be a new wave of business opportunity for malls, movie theaters, shopping centers, etc to draw people to their location.
Rumpole,
I agree with you. Why should we keep sending our money and troops to countries that do not support our country and our values, like the OPEC countries? Kick our addiction to oil.
When I bought my VW Jetta Diesel 4 years ago, I researched all types of eco-friendly technologies, and decided bio-diesel HAD to be the way of the future. It can be made from almost any agricultural waste, uses no fossil fuels, burns completely clean, and gives great mileage (45-50 miles per gallon).
I have been completely frustrated that there has been no support to develop this fuel source. Electicity SEEMS attractive, but in my opinion has a number of draw backs compared to bio-diesel, including fossil fuel use, distance, needing to create charging stations, etc.
Can your guests tell me why there has been support for electrical technologies but not bio-diesel, when it is right in front of us, available and ready to be put to use?
So very little attention is given to issues of mass transportation! Why is there not a vast migration to electric buses and rail transportation? I live in eastern Massachusetts, and mass transportation to New York and beyond is terribly slow or expensive. Who will provide funding for Maglev etc., or just plain fast electric rail transportation? It costs so much less to drive, owing to subsidies. And, why are electric power sources so little subsidized? Myriad questions, and all appear to point to government as the cause of delay.
--Points made without editing; last sentence is main point.--
the government subsidizes 10's of billion$ of dollar$ every year to the oil companies to the point where some get tax refunds
China is eating our lunch in the EV and RE fields
According to Tomas Freedman, he pointed out that we have a expansive railway system in his book "The World is Flat". Why can't we retrofit our rail system on an electrical grid and improve continental transit system? We can certainly use electrical cars for short distance and long distances on the electrical train. This is an identical system used in Europe.
Art, I lived in Phoenix in the 90's when the Saturn EV-1 was being tested. There were a few charging centers around town - at a mall, one near downtown I think. It wasn't a great solution, but at least you could enjoy the mall AC for a few hours while your car charged.
I envision some sort of network of charging stations, powered by solar. If there was a way to "rapid" charge the battery, it could replace the need for swappable battery packs. I'm not an engineer, just a dreamer so I don't know if this is even possible.
But wouldn't you choose one movie chain over another, if you could charge your car for a nominal fee while enjoying a show, instead of you car just sitting in the parking lot?
There is enough excess generating capacity in the electric to power a few hundred million EV's of various sizes.
A single power plant is a lot cleaner than 100.000's gas burners.
Much of the energy used by combustion engine vehicles is used to move the weight of the vehicle, not the cargo or passengers. Electric vehicles have added efficiency due to the absence of an engine.
When I buy a laptop computer, my batteries start off able to last four hours or more. But after a few months or a year, the batteries are down to lasting only an hour and later down to a half hour. Will LION batteries degrade in a similar way? Is there a predictable timeframe for how long a VOLT or LEAF buyer will need to consider replacing the battery pack?
I love the idea of greener vehicles, but, I use my SUV (1996 Isuzu Rodeo) at my day job and my moonlighting job. I need a vehicle with power, stamina and room for hauling. I will only buy a new green(er) vehicle when it equals or betters what my SUV currently gives me.