Israel and Aid Ships to Gaza
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-06-02/israel-and-aid-ships-gaza
International condemnation and protests follow a deadly confrontation between Israel and Gaza-bound aid ships. Guest host Frank Sesno and our panelists explore what the crisis could mean for U.S. relations with Israel and other allies.
Guests
Hisham Melhem
Washington bureau chief for Al-Arabiya TV, and Washington correspondent for "An-Nahar"
Aaron David Miller
public policy fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars; former adviser to six U.S. Secretaries of State on Arab-Israeli negotiations; author, most recently of "The Much Too Promised Land: America's Elusive Search for Arab-Israeli Peace."
Adam Shapiro
co-founder, Free Gaza Movement
Michael Oren
Israeli ambassador to the U.S.
former senior fellow at the Shalem Center;
author of "Six Days of War: June 1967 and the Making of the Modern Middle East"
Comments
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Can anyone justify killing innocent men, women and children for a dispute over land rights that could be settled with honest diplomacy? Would we accept that in America?
In today’s NYT’s, the originator of this flotilla, Greta Berlin, said she is opposed to all national borders and opposes the existence of Israel as a Jewish state.
There is one Jewish nation and there are 22 Arab nations. Israel is a free democracy that allows for vibrant and open debate, has a court system that can and does overrule its government, and provides legal protections for its women and minorities. None of the Arab nations has that.
For all of us, unless we are prepared to give up all of Europe to the extremists who oppose our world and our values - especially women's equality, we better stand with Israel and seek an end to this conflict in a way that assures Israel's safe survival, or we will deeply regret it in the future.
The list of innocent Americans killed by Palestinians is much longer. Moreover, they honor the murderers.
If this is a moral contest, there is no contest. Palestinians support terror and suicide bombings against unknown people to achieve their ends. They brainwash or threaten young innocent Palestinians to strap the bombs on. They have no morality.
A handful of accidental deaths by Israelis are nothing against the multitude of deaths caused and celebrated by the Palestinians.
What is more. There is no reason for these deaths. On a number of occasions, Israeli leaders have gone to the negotiating table ready to cut a final deal. The Palestinian leadership has refused because they would not compromise on any of their demands.
Of course, their biggest demand is to end Israel as a Jewish state and allow the Palestinians to take over. Hamas is determined to take all of Israel. That is not negotiable.
Turkey should send its navy along with the next flotilla. NATO too. The blockade is an illegal act of war and its time a credible force put an end to it.
Perhaps Israeli leaders would think twice if they faced a real force capable, for once, of inflicting suffering proportional to the suffering they are usually so quick to inflict on their weaker neighbors.
Are you an expert on international law?
Would you limit America to three miles off our shores if it knew an enemy was approaching with the intent of helping provide weapons or the steel and concrete necessary to build protective storehouses for weapons to a terrorist group with the intent of destroying America?
Who was killed by the way? Do you know the names? Were they peace activists? Were those peace-lovers who attacked the Israeli soldiers with steel bars as soon as they touched the deck of the ship in the middle of the night? Were they, in fact, mercenaries or extrtremist soldiers themselves?
By the way, their weaker neighbor is Hamas, an organization that has been holding an Israeli prisoner for the past four years and that prisoner has never been allowed a visit by the Red Cross. Did you know that?
It is the same organization that shoots missiles into hospitals and children's play areas in Sderot, Israel because that is the closest town to Gaza. Did you know that?
I look forward to your response.
I found Israeli ambassador Michael Oren's comments troubling. On the one hand, he admits that Israel does not know the identity of some of the people killed by the Israeli commandos. But if Israel does not know the identity of these victims, how can it presume to know so much about their affiliations?
Further, Israel appears unable to supply any more definitive footage of the event than the reportedly ambivalent depiction international observers can already see on the referenced YouTube videos.
Thanks, Frank, for your insightful press on Ambassador Oren for Israeli openness to a future apology. In light of the limited facts now on the table, this openness to the possibility of apology is a demonstration of the diplomatic leadership we must trust our friends in Israel to value. I thought I heard a note of this leadership in Ambassador Oren's response - a note of concession to the complexity of the available evidence - but it was much too fleeting.
The people of Israel certainly enjoy a right to defend themselves. The question is how far that right extends before it crosses the line into deeply regrettable misjudgment. Israel might do better to separate what appears to me an obvious tactical misjudgment from its underlying case for the blockade. The international community already understands Israel's case for the blockade. That case is not the immediate issue. The crux of the immediate issue is whether or not Israel really wants us to believe that Israeli leadership thinks this commando operation was a show of good judgment and technical competence.
Isn't that asking just a bit too much in light of the available evidence?
I found this comment to be quite telling:
nccu02us wrote:
Is the Diane Rehm show now the voice of Israel, this is maddening, 20 minutes of Israeli view, what about "other sides".
Again, where is fair two sides of this confrontation.
Surely nccu02us is joking. I listened to the program closely, which lasts just slightly less than an hour. For most of that hour, about 40 minutes, I heard a steady, unanswered attack on Israel and its policies by assorted voices. Then the Israeli Ambassador answered some of the charges in the 20 minutes he appeared. And somehow, this is "unfair", and does not show the "other side"?
If anything, it is unfair in that both "sides" were not allotted 30 minutes each to present their positions. That would have been fair.
However, nccu02us would suggest that only allowing the Palestinian side more than 65% of the time program meant that the Diane Rehm show was somehow now the "voice of Israel". You have got to be kidding me.
I also was interested to hear Hisham Melhem practically beg for the US to "knock heads" of both Israel and the Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims to settle this situation. I wonder if he realizes what he is asking for?
*Most Americans favor the Israeli position. Polls show this to be true. Stunts like this "aid convoy" make Palestinians and Arabs and Muslims look even worse than they already appear.
*Most Americans are not very positively disposed towards groups that mount terrorist operations against them, over and over and over, and loudly and proudly proclaim their hatred of Americans and desire to kill all Americans, at any time, anywhere, for any reason, or no reason. Does not really create warm and fuzzy feelings, you know?
And then, Melhem proclaims that he wants Americans to knock heads? Gee, I seem to recall a lot of crying about US intervention in Iraq and Afghanistan and now Yemen and Pakistan. Mr. Melhem, I think you might want to reconsider your position before presenting it in future public fora.
Good for you, ozkar. So, anyone who is uncomfortable with repeated Muslim/Arab calls to slaughter Americans wholesale is a "racist". I guess you have appropriated this sort of language to try to play on Western guilt. Nice try, but I, for one, do not find it particularly compelling.
Americans had no problem with Arabs and/or Muslims until they started to try to kill Americans. Americans supported the Arabs/Muslims against the French in Algeria and the French and British in the Suez Crisis. Americans stopped the attacks on Muslims in Bosnia and Kosovo. Americans tried to feed the starving Muslims in Somalia when warlords blocked the food shipments. There are lots of other examples, and they go back many decades. Americans did not even hold the Barbary Pirate attacks against the Arabs/Muslims, which would have been the most common response in most of the world. Americans even invited Arabs and Muslims to settle in the US, and Dearborn, Michigan and several other communities are a testimony to this.
Americans are anti-Arab and therefore "racist" ? I think the facts do not support your claim.
Of COURSE the only thing left is for Palestinians (and Arabs and Muslims) to lay down their arms. This has been true for decades and decades. They have been begged to do this for years and years and years. They have even promised to do so, on several occasions, but then were not able to. However, if they will lay down their arms, then they will have a much better chance for a peaceful prosperous existence. And the walls and blockades and searches etc will be a distant memory.
Let's see if Palestinians/Arabs/Muslims are able to adopt this strategy. I will not be holding my breath, however.
"dsg1 wrote:
....
If, as Free Gaza guest suggests, the "Gazans had found a way to break the blockade with tunnels" to Egypt, they why was Free Gaza's boat necessary?
June 2, 2010 - 10:39 am"
The Jews allow the tunnels for the same reason they allow the "High Trajectory Missiles".
The Jews have State of the Art detection systems and could eliminate the rockets in one week. The rockets are the Jews lame justification for the endless atrocities they commit against the Palestinians.
The Jews control everything in and out of Gaza, without tunnels, how could they claim tons of weapons are being smuggled in?
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
Aaron made a particularly frightening remark. He said the crisis would pass as other crises have passed. The same mistake has led to disasterous consequences in the past: The frequent Balkan crises of the early Twentieth Century lulled Europe into a sense of safety. The consequence were the horrors of the First World War. The series of crises precipitated by Hitler seemed to pass with no discernable problem--until the little issue of Danzg threw the entire world into the chaos of the Second World War.
What will be the tipping point in the Middle East? It will probably be a minor "crisis" that might have passed without much comment.
The worst danger is that Israeli policy may be based on the supposition that these crises will all pass.
The Turks feel betrayed by this latest Jew Treachery. They made a major error in trusting the Jews, but the Jews are just doing what they have always done- turning against a Friend when they can get a better deal elsewhere. As they will do to us, sooner or later.
Since the Iraq War, they have cultivated the Kurds, using their new Friends for Intel and Provocations in Iran, Syria and even Turkey.
Too bad, Turkey has been one of our strongest allies, far, far better allies than the Jews and the Jews have managed to destroy one more American Friendship and isolate us even further.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
"nccu02us wrote:
Is the Diane Rehm show now the voice of Israel, this is maddening, 20 minutes of Israeli view, what about "other sides".
Again, where is fair two sides of this confrontation.
June 2, 2010 - 1:40 pm"
Like most of the American Media, Diane has a bias in favor of Israel, but I'll bet she was delighted not to have to preside over this hour.
Monte Haun mchaun@hotmail.com
go home turkey, antichrist! who do you think you are fooling? Hurray for Isreal! If you, Turkey feels so sorry about Gaza and the Palastinians, then take them back with you! GOD GAVE ISREAL TO THE ISRALIES NOT THE PALESTANIANS>>>GET OVER IT! AS A CHRISTIAN I DON'T AGREE WITH YOUR FORKED TONGUE AND LIES!
YOU ARE A FOOL IF YOU SINCERELY BELIVE WHAT YOU POSTED
GO HOME, obviously you don't belong here
FRead the Bible if you want ansers to your ludicrous questions
WOW!, just went to the website free gaza.com and what a nightmare. Thank You Israel for stopping those boats...can't read what that website said,because it's Arabic, but DON'T EXPECT ANY SYMPATHY FROM ME MUSLIMS...YOU ARE VERY VERY SCARY and the pictures depicted were very frightening. I PRAY WE ALL KEEP AN EYE ON YOU , TURKEY, MUSLIMS HAMAS and GAZA! THANK GOD ISRAEL IS ON HER TOES, to think these people are in my country sending such hate e-mails, GOD SAVE US>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"just went to the website free gaza.com and what a nightmare......can't read what that website said,because it's Arabic, but DON'T EXPECT ANY SYMPATHY FROM ME MUSLIMS.
and
" .... to think these people are in my country sending such hate e-mails, GOD SAVE US".
With this kind of narrow-minded bigotry, it's hard to believe that any God would be saving you. Just look at the facts - commandos boarding a ship in international waters is considered an attack just like the Somali pirates boarding freighters. The occupants of the ship have the right to defend and repel the attackers but since it's the Israelis (waving the "we were victims of the holocaust so we have impunity" flag), the US just looks the other way. The commandos put 4 bullets in one protesters head. Where are all the injured and maimed Israelis? There are none. Many members of the flotilla were deported for "illegally entering Israel". What? They were forcibly removed from from a ship in international water and taken to Israel at gunpoint - how did they enter illegally? It just stinks of murder with no credible justification. BTW - did you see the picture of the young woman in the west bank who was protesting the murders and was shot in the face with a tear gas cannister from 30 ft away. She had a flag and they had guns. Justify that one.
Boycott Israel and demand congress support a resolution to stop the blockade of Gaza.
These are some thoughts I had listening to this podcast.
How is Israel “occupying” Gaza?
What responsibility does the government in Gaza, Hamas, have in “Freeing Gaza”? It seems to me the easiest way to accomplish this goal would be to stop firing rockets into Israel…I feel like we’re operating in parallel realities. In my reality allowing the people of Gaza to suffer so that Israel can be terrorized is not the choice of a real government. It’s the choice of a terrorist group. Which do they want to be? Their actions reinforce the rational world view that they aren’t a legitimate government.
Where are the real peace activists, international human rights organizations, foreign governments...to hold Hamas accountable for the suffering of their people?
“Not all of Gaza is Hamas…” but Hamas was elected to govern by the majority…I’m confused…where are the Gazans who oppose Hamas? Where do I get info on them? Can’t find anything online…do they have to meet in secret because of fear of reprisals from their “government”? When is the next election? Who is the opposition?
How is trying to break a blockade not a provocation?
Tunnels have not been used primarily for food, but for the black market arms industry. Those tunnels are dangerous—weapons bring in the money…where does the money come from with the economy in such terrible condition?
Why don’t we know the identities of the dead from the peace flotilla? Where were their identification, why won’t the passengers reveal their identities? Is it because they do have terrorist ties, as Israel suggests?
From what I understand, Turkey has been fomenting this confrontation for weeks for political reasons. The rift between Israel and Turkey has been in the making for a while…again for political purposes in Turkey.
As I continue to ponder this disturbing situation, a few facts that seem to be ignored in the media strike me:
*Hamas took power by force, after the election that gave it a majority. There were fierce gun battles between Hamas and Fatah that raged for months and years after. There were even firefights between different Hamas factions, like the Hamas police fighting the Hamas military fighting the Hamas intelligence service. This undermines claims of its legitimacy, frankly.
*Hamas is widely classified as a terrorist organization in the West, and for good reason.
*Hamas is at war with Israel, and has been at war with Israel for years. This is not an inactive state of war, like the state of war that exists between Saudi Arabia and Israel where no actions are taken. Instead, Hamas attacks Israel with weapons, and often several times a day. Israel is somehow not supposed to respond to this?
*When people live in a war zone, they sometimes get hurt. When people support terrorist regimes, they also sometimes get hurt. Palestinians satisfy both of these conditions. It might not be fair, but who promised fairness?
*The West Bank seems to be thriving, and therefore is a huge counterexample demonstrating the lies that Hamas manages to push in Western media as part of its publicity efforts. I do not buy the Hamas lies, but I am astounded that so many in the Western media do.
Off the coast of Gaza are extensive gas fields; officially opened by Arafat. Now Israel controls the region, and probably using directional drilling tapping into the gas fields. By keeping a lid on Gaza, Israel can steal this resource.
Jan 14, 2009 ... September 27, 2000: Yasser Arafat traveled 19 miles off the Gaza coast to light the first flare stack flowing from the natural gas. ...
www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=11787
Gaza territorial waters extend to about 35km off the coast. In 1999, the oil firm BG International discovered a huge deposit of natural gas 32km from the Gaza coast. The Gaza Marine gas field contains 1.2 trillion cubic feet of gas valued at over $4 billion. As per the Oslo peace accords, which created Gaza, Israel has security control over air and water around Gaza. So, it wrangled a deal with BG to get access to Gaza Marine gas at cheap rates.
. The Israelis began their program of killing and harassing the Gaza fishermen only after the discovery of the natural gas deposits. The Israelis are asserting control over this; And that they are intent on denying any benefit to the Palestinians regardless of who controls Gaza.
1994 Gaza-Jericho Agreement gives 12 mile fishing limit; Israel kills if 6 mile limit is exceeded.