The Politics and Possibilities of Immigration Reform
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-04-27/politics-and-possibilities-immigration-reform
People protest Arizona's tough new anti-immigration law outside the state's Capitol building, April 25 2010
Flickr user kevinbondelli
Arizona's tough new immigration law might force Democrats to push for an overhaul this year. A key Republican has vowed to withdraw his support for an energy bill if Congress gives priority to immigration legislation. A discussion of the politics and possibilities of immigration reform.
Guests
Angela Kelley
vice president for immigration policy and advocacy, Center for American Progress.
Laura Meckler
White House correspondent for The Wall Street Journal.
Mark Krikorian
executive director of the Center for Immigration Studies.
Comments
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John McCain contantly brags about his years in the senate, represents Arizona, and now complains the Federal Government has done nothing about immigration. Why has he not worked on this for the past several years instead of letting it get so out of control.
1. Does anyone realize that Mexico does not want reform? as long as their citizens come to the US and send money back there, or at least are not a burden on their economy, they have no reason to help in this issue.
2. I am a Florida resident and am very familiar with the problem of undocumented workers, and how they are a drain on the local economy. I am a registered democrat and I still applaud the Arizona governor for taking such a step. While I feel that there is potential for abuse, the pendulum will have to swing to an extreme before a more appropriate solution can be found...unless our ineffective president decides to do something at a federal level.
Don't forget that there is a whole underground system for undocumented workers to obtain false social security numbers and other documents that also needs to be addressed.
Has anyone given thought to the impact of the Arizona legislation on Latino vote? Is this an effort to suppress the participation of legal immigrants who do not want to get harassed when trying to vote?
I am a Puerto Rican woman living in Texas since 1976. My friend Miriam was born in Venezuela and has lived in the US since her teens and became a US citizen in her 20's. My friend Kay was born in Australia and became a US citizen some 5 years ago. The same for Dominique, a South African woman. These last two, by the way, invested thousands of dollars and endured a naturalization application process that lasted over 10 years each. We are highly educated, law-abiding citizens (I hold two Master's degrees and have worked in Juvenile Justice for 30 years), yet all of us retain our native language or regional accents. Imagine the four of us chatting and walking around downtown Phoenix and absent-mindedly crossing the street in the wrong place.
Would we end up in jail?
My adopted daughter was born in Korea and became a naturalized citizen at age seven. According to the Arizona law, she would need to carry her naturalization papers, birth certificate, or passport to prove that she is an 'American'. Of course, she probably wouldn't be checked in Arizona since she's not Latino which whether the Arizona government and citizens will admit. However, this bill makes any immigrant or anyone that doesn't isn't of Northern European descent a 'suspect'. Let's be real here. This bill was written against Central and South American descent. Arizona didn't mind 'illegal' immigrants when it brought them cheap labor. If you want to stop the violence in Mexico, Americans need to stop using illegal drugs.
As a mother of an adopted child from another country and witnessed racist comments against her by peers, I know that the roots of this law are racist.
The Federal Govt. has itself done such a measure as AZ is doing. Section 287(g) allows federal agents train local law enforcement to question one's status during its normal course of duty. All this fear mongering seems to forget that point. Its nothing new. AZ just can't wait any longer for the federal govt to act.
Also, how does one think federal agents find reasonable suspicion? They look for behavioral ques. Why is it impossible to think local law enforcement, after training, would be able to enforce the same reasonable suspicion?
Demographics is destiny. If America continues to allow immigrants from the 2nd/3rd world to pour in here, it logically follows that large portions of the USA will eventually become a 2nd/3rd world type of nation -- if you look around, especially in those U.S., states where immigrants are a large portion of the population, we are seeing the beginning stages of this disturbing process of decline.
How is very immigrant-heavy California doing these days? Last I checked they were deeply in debt, parts are very overcrowded, they are running short on water, unemployment is sky-high, education is shoddy, crime and gangs are up, illegitimate births are extremely high, immigrants pay few taxes yet use public services like hospitals-public schools-roads, etc.
So anyone who rushes out the door and forgets their wallet will risk being arrested and taken to ICE for failing to show identification? Or just those who don't "look" or "sound" American. This does nothing to solve the racial profiling problem unless everyone runs the same risk.
My concern about the law is "what mechanism will authority use to determine who should be asked to produce proof of legal status?".
Will the average American be willing to be scrutinized by the police as this law requires?
I had a friend who was a legal resident held for hours in Texas just because he looked Mexican while on his honey moon. It took the authority half a day before he was cleared and let go..
Please comment,
William
Baltimore MD
In regards to carrying identification, I would be afraid to carry official papers around on a daily basis. I routine lose my keys and phone I shudder to think how easily I might misplace a green card. When traveling abroad it is usually discouraged to carry your passport. I always leave mine in a room safe or with the front desk of those hotels that require them to give you a room. I would imagine that green cards and the like are not easy to get copies of, so if you lose it, you're in even more trouble trying to prove your status.
I completely understand the concerns about privacy, but we are a society that now willingly places an enormous amount of private information on the world wide web, ie social networking sites, online banking and financial services etc. Many states require that you opt out of having your SSN on your drivers license. If having a national ID card were to help with immigration issues, why is there such an outcry
I would like some more explanation of what "lawful contact" with the police means. If a person is not suspected of illegal conduct (other than illegally being in the US), under what circumstances could the police detain a person to examine his papers?
I am not familiar with the exact text of the Arizona law so cannot comment specifically on it. However, I support the general approach that ILLEGAL immigrants are breaking the law and should be treated accordingly. The only solution I see to preventing continued illegal immigration, which is eating up valuable US resources, is to make illegal immigration less appealing. Expelling illegal immigrants is the only solution. Giving them jobs, drivers licenses, medical care, etc. is encouraging more illegal immigrants to pay to get into the US illegally. The key word here is ILLEGAL.
It is not discrimination to hold residents of all other countries to the same standards expected of US citizens when they go to other countries.
If Obama continues to support illegal immigration to gain voter support, he will lose even greater support from registered US voters! I am a registered Democrat and on the upper end of liberal, and I am fed up with the mess created by illegal immigrants. Get appropriate LAWS established to correct the situation and the manipulation for votes and the incorrect assertions that this is discrimination will not be valid.
A recent caller from San Antonio stated that the situation in Arizona is untenable and that illegal immigrants there are taking jobs away from Americans. I find this argument very flawed, each time I hear it. I used to live in San Antonio, and have lived in Texas all my life, both places with a large Hispanic population and a large illegal immigrant population. I have never once known anyone who was clammering to take the same jobs that illegal immigrants, through our domestic exploitation, are relegated to. I wish that people would be honest with themselves regarding this fact and realize that illegal immigrants, if set on a path to legalization, would be no threat to them or their jobs.
I think the greatest issue with the new AZ law is that a great majority of the citizen population of AZ are hispanics, let's not forget that territory used to be part of Mexico. Thus a lot of citizens will be suspected of being illegals and harassed. Do those citizens of hispanic origin now have to carry around a passport or a birth certificate with them?
Let's also take into account that there are a lot of people crossing the border via Mexico because they know they will not be stopped if they don't look hispanic.
Many asians, eastern and western europeans, middle eastern, and cubans are coming in thru Mexico and those groups are not being targeted, only hispanics.
I am all for controlling illegal immigration, but a blanket permit to target an ethnic group, that is going too far.
Thank you for this wonderful discussion (rather than a shouting match as used in other forums).
As a naturalized American, I personally find the AZ bill discriminatory at best. How does one "look" as though they are illegal?
Somehow, if I visit AZ would I need to carry my US passport at all times? If I just avoided words with the 'ou' dipthong (as in out, about) and didn't use "eh?", I think I could "pass." Somehow I don't think this is what AZ had in mind.
However, heaven help anyone who speaks Spanish as a mother tongue and has an accent.
I am a legal immigrant, and my family waited almost 10 years to get green cards to come to this country legally. It is not right for specific race or people to jump ahead and break the law. Lots of the illegals don't pay taxes but accepts welfares and free education. Illegal immigrants pushes down the wages, creates the environment that foster crimes. I'm all for immigration, but you need to FOLLOW THE LAW FIRST!!!!!
It is easy to blame immigrants for our problems and is done all over the world - Moroccans in Spain, Algerians in France, West Indians in Britain, Roma in Italy - but there is still little consensus about the costs and benefits of undocumented immigrants. Without solid numbers to back this up, isn't some of this reaction just legalized xenophobia as a baseline norm? I note that I see few Americans lining up for the low-wage, zero-benefit jobs that are typically associated with undocumented workers.
I have had a lot of contact with illegal immigrants working in the US and have helped submit their tax returns. I have never encountered an illegal immigrant who did not want to pay taxes, they all said the same thing: "if ever there was some kind of amnesty to legalize my situation, I want to prove that I have paid taxes, and will gladly continue to do so". In addition, a lot of them were victims of greedy and unscrupulous swindlers who would charge them more than $300 for a simple 1040, even though none of them ever got any kind of refund from the IRS because they were not entitled to standard deductions or earn income credit that the rest of americans benefit from. In my experience, most illegal immigrants are honest, hard working and just want to better themselves.
Leslie in South Florida
One way to target illegals who are working with false papers would be to force Social Security Administration to share information with Homeland Security.
They are the first to know about illegals working as they would be getting contributions for one Social Security number from two different locations. If they share that with Homeland Security, they would know who is the real person, and who is the illegal migrant.
Considering how difficult , long and expensive it is to get a Green Card in the USA, how will we ever implement another complicated system for immigrant workers?
The current US law states that if you are in this country on any sort of visa-- tourist visa, work visa, etc-- you must carry it with you at all times. In Arizona if they ask you for it and you don't have it, you can go to jail for 6 months and pay a fine.
I wonder what would happen if the Mexican government decided to walk down the beaches of Cancun and Cabo San Lucas, and ask everyone for their passport? Nobody brings their vitally important papers to the beach (or in Arizona, the swimming pool). Foreign tourists in the US shouldn't have to, either.
Most of the justifying arguments I hear about why illegal immigrants do not immigrate legally to the US are related to the high cost of application. That is, the cost of legal immigration is unattainable for many people who would like to become a part of our country. However, I am curious to know why illegal immigrants, such as the earlier caller, who have established themselves as residents and are successfully making an income on par with that of natural-born US citizens do not apply, at the very least for legal residency? Perhaps I reveal my ignorance in my comment, but I cannot see any justification for remaining "illegal" in this case.
Krystal Lair
Arlington, Texas
Your guest makes a comment regarding her relative "not wanting to go on vacation" out of fear of profiling due to the fact she enjoys "blaring loud music" out of her car.
I would suggest she take her family on vacation to a locale where this would NOT pose a problem, where everyone could behave in whatever manner they please, and go ahead and make that place an environment that "America is all about."
Cultural sensitivity is a two-way street.
I just wanted to comment on the the illegal immigrant who called in to complain about the hardships of his life. I am compelled to ask what responsibility does he take for his choice to come here illegally? Everything he described is a direct result of he choice he willingly made, yet he seems to think that the American people are picking on him because he is illegal. If he had shown enough respect for our country and our laws to go through the legal process, he would be facing none of these hardships. He also suggested that the if we all just accept the illegals into our community that most would come out of hiding and become responsible citizens, but I must point out the if they felt the need to be a responsible law-abiding citizen, they would have obeyed the law regarding immigrating to this country.
I think we are missing the REAL point, as I believe it is. First and foremost, this is about money. We should address it as such. Give everyone, legal or not a social security number. Let any company hire any one, legal or not. Everyone works everyone pays taxes everyone is prodfuctive. However only legal US Citizens can enjoy the fruit of this labor. Therefore ONLY US Citizens can collect Social Security and benefits as unemployment. The free market will address the issuies of illegal imigration. With everyone pays but only US Citizens play philosiphy the illegal;s will strive to be legal or leave.
Regarding documentation, thats easy to get around. Currently illegals have babies in the US they are noiw citizens, the they give the baby identical names of themseves. They now will have documentation anbs a valid SS Card and legal status. Your missing how insidious this really is. The free market is the only tool we can afford to fix this.
People do not seem to realize that the NAFTA treaty that Clinton pushed through made American corn, the most heavily subsidized corporate farm crop in the country, cheaper to sell in the local markets than the corn grown on neighboring farms in Mexico for centuries.
We have upended the local Mexican farm economy into failure in order to fatten up already fat corporate, big business farming operations. This has helped drive desperate people into the drug trade and into the Sonoran desert.
No one seems to be talking about our responsibility for the immigration trouble with Mexico, and yet, our big corporate interests are driving people off of their farms and out of their own communities.
The current immigration laws encourage people to come into the country and work illegally in order to have a shot at becoming a citizen. I know of two people who are British and married to US citizens who have been in this country over two years illegally. When they went to apply for citizenship the first time around and start the paperwork they were told to go find work for a year "under the table" to prove that they are capable of holding a job here in the US (one of the prerequisites to becoming a citizen). People love to spout nonesense about illegal immigrants when they don't even realize how broken the system is. There are people who have paid their fees and filled out the paperwork and have to wait years because they go in a "lotto" to be granted citizenship. It's not first come first serve. And the costs are gigantic to a poor person coming to this country.
Many of us are citizens born and raised here because our ancestors came through Ellis Island when this nation encouraged immigration. In other words, we're citizens because our families immigrated during the 'good times' and were lucky to do so when they did. When did this change? What happened to "give us your poor huddled masses?" These people are just trying to make a better life for themselves like our ancestors were. Why should we deny them the that right? We are a nation of immigrants!
To Krystal Lair:
Because they are NOT making income equal to a US citizen. Companies like to hire illegals "under the table" because they can pay them well below minimum wage - some make less than $10 a day. They also don't get any type of benefits.
Do you eat tomatoes in winter? Then you're consuming a product that is quite literally picked by slaves who are brought in from latin America that aren't even paid and are locked in rooms at night, all because they were promised that could come to America and make a life for themselves and are now "paying off the debt" to bring them here. (Don't believe me? Search the NY Times if they haven't taken the article down yet) Our immigration laws are the cause of much of this.
What would happen if Florida passed a similar law aimed at finding illegal Hatian immigrants. How would African Americans react to that? Why is it ok to do this to Hispanics? I have traced my family back to pre-1848, when the Treaty of Guadalupe-Hidalgo made us U.S. citizens. Why must I, and other like me, have to prove that we are U.S. citizens?