Christos Tsiolkas: "The Slap" (Penguin)
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-04-26/christos-tsiolkas-slap-penguin
An award-winning Australian novelist on a twenty-first century moral dilemma. A man at a Sunday barbeque slaps a misbehaving child who is not his own, triggering different reactions among his friends and family.
Guests
Christos Tsiolkas
Award-winning novelist, playwright, essayist, and screenwriter
Comments
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Diane:
My late wife and I frequently lamented what we saw as progressively very negative changes in public behaviors over the past 3 or 4 decades. These changes come from adults as often as from children. We wondered when, where, how the sense of entitlement arose that permits the selfishness that bad behavior reflects.
Tim Raine
8365 Curzon Ave
Cincinnati, OH 45216
I believe that many of the "middle class & up" children of America today have been given too much. I believe part of the gross lawlessness practiced by the banks, the stockmarket, the medical & legal profession stem from an ingrained entitlement that allows modern day man to break any rule if it serves this learned idea: I deserve to have what ever I want.
Hi Diane,
A few weeks ago Michelle Martin had author and mother of Chris Rock, Rose Rock on to discuss her new book - Mama Rock's Rules.
I found it interesting that she was actually a proponent of spankings as the ultimate form of punishment followed by a deep conversation as to why the child received that punishment and what they could do to correct that behavior.
She mentioned that too many times parents don't use spankings but hateful words like "stupid, worthless or crazy," without a conversation. These words, Mrs. Rock says, last a lifetime while a spanking just lasts five seconds.
It would interesting to find out which has a longer effect on a child a spanking or calling them stupid.
Thanks,
Jane from Virginia
A friend of mines told me a story about crazy drama that broke out at a funeral service. She said a group of young men came in wearing hats and the minister asked them to remove their hats which brought on a barrage of verbal assaults against him. Of course, they did not remove their hats! I said to my friends that unfortunately today, you have to pick your battles because simple remarks of correction can become violent. There is no longer a respect for our elders, as I was told by my parents to do.
Once again, we are subjected "the gospel of Diane Rhem." I have nearly canceled my membership repeatedly because of this person's self-righteous, sanctimonious opinions. We are constantly informed of her opinions, and I have difficulty understanding what a radio show host's opinions have to do with being an objective moderator. The story she just told of her interference in a parent-child interaction is the very story that caused me to call my local radio station (WFYI) and complain about this program being included in their daily line-up. Is she a trained child/family therapist? Is she a law-enforcement officer? Is she a pediatrician? You might guess all of these titles given her decision to intervene when she had no idea at all as to the circumstances of the situation. Does she know, for a fact, that the child does not suffer from mental illness (as well as the mother)? Does she know that the child does not suffer from some other behavioral problem that causes him to put himself in dangerous situations? I know we can all rest easier knowing that this "moral policewoman" is on the job.
When I was 20, my mother, who spanked and hit me, sometimes with objects, made this remark: " If I had it to do over again, I wouldn't hit you kids".
I said to her, " What do you mean? If I had a kid and he got out of line, I'd whack him!"
She said, "See? I taught you that violence is an acceptable means of discipline."
I am forever grateful for her saying this to me. It changed my thinking and I never hit my now-adult children. We found more imaginative and loving ways of addressing with conflict and anger.
The writer and psychoanalyst Alice Miller says simply that we hit because we were hit. For this cycle of abuse to be broken, there must be the presence in the child's life of what she calls an "enlightened witness", who sees and affirms the child's basic goodness.
My mother turned out to be my enlightened witness after all.
Barbara in Maryland
I'm 60 now. But as a young man dealing with children's behavior and misbehavior, I remember older adults especially women confirming how I handled children's behavior. These were strangers simply parenting another stranger. I am unaware of seeing this now. With the decline of public transportation in America have we lost such generational interaction?
In college, I gave a speech denouncing capitol punishment for children. I was verbally attacked by my classmates who felt it was insulting to them and their parents, many of whom were "spanked" as a child. "I came out just fine," was their resounding comment. I would ever hit another adult, why would I hit a child? My kids are now 20 and 18 years-old and wonderful loving kind compassionate adults.
It is incredibly sad to me that people still do not realize that there are far more effective ways to discipline children than the use of corporal punishment. Corporal punishment is a primitive response; discipline that teaches by allowing or setting up negative consequences to flow from the objectionable behavior works far better. Of course, that takes thought and requires learning the better ways. I recommend to parents who do not wish to use corporal punishment that they explore Adlerian approaches to discipline in such books as the Positive Discipline series.
We can't even have a public discussion on discouraging people from having children before they are ready to parent. We can't speak about getting an education or being financially, emotionally balanced before having children. How do we think we can comment on how people parent the children so many are not even remoting prepared to support.
It's time to bring the elephant in room into the light. As a society we need to stress being able to support yourself emotionally and financially before bringing children into the world.
This is not rocket science. She witnessed abusive behavior of a child--KICKING him/her!-- and had the guts to intervene. While we might understand what brought on the abusive behavior, "understanding" should not equate with condoning it
Diane,
If it were not for immediate but measured corporal punishment my poor mother would not have been able to get her point across nor control my brother and I. Considering we both went into the Marines, you might get an idea of what kind of boys we were. She was not malicious, but with some types of boys there is no other way. We would not have understood an adult explanation of why our behaviour was bad nor why certain words were not to be spoken, unless she gave us a little "reinforcement" from time to time.
Thanks Mom!
John
I was also spanked and thought I "turned out ok". However, becoming a parent made me reconsider. Is it fair for a larger person to hit a smaller person just because they can? I don't think so. And I don't want my son to hit smaller children just because I hit him. They DO act out almost everything they see adults do.
Maybe because of this, my son rarely hits when he is mad. I try to teach him through natural consequences instead. As a very logical person, I don’t think being hit is a logical consequence most of the time. But having to "pay" for something you broke (using a toy instead of money), or missing out on an activity, does make sense even to toddlers, and preserves a loving relationship.
I would not judge an occasional swat, maybe when a child is too young to understand a particular danger. I haven't encountered such a situation with my overly-cautious 4 year old. But I agree that parents are overly critical of each other, and don't believe you can judge what you see another parent doing.
My son has some disabilities that are hard to recognize unless you are a specialist or know him well. I’m sure people think I am too lenient sometimes, but I have learned to be confident in my mother instincts. I have also learned how wrong I was BEFORE I had children, to think I knew better than parents I saw in public with their children.
Finally, I do not blame my parents for spanking me. Each generation does what they think is best. Just this weekend my mom confessed that she swatted my son, which I did not think was warranted, but she does not have the tools I have learned to deal with his behavior. She used the tools she had. It is just part of his learning process, that grandma reacts differently than mom. He'll "turn out fine", hopefully, anyway.
Thanks for a very interesting show. I hope to read the book but am concerned that my public library does not have it, possibly because of the language. I will be asking them.
I don't have children. I did, however, grow up in the 7O's. I also have 8 years experience as a sub teacher in L.A. for both general and spec ed students, so I've had a chance to see both parents' and children's behavior in a school setting as well as what we all witness in public. As a child, I got very few slaps. No more were necessary because, by that time, I knew better - lesson learned. I have grown up to be a well mannered, respectful, and empathetic person. Though it should not be the only form of punishment, I feel that there is nothing wrong with a spanking or a slap for the right reason in the right situation. Here's one: Remember, children go through various stages of development. It takes them a while to get the whole "empathy" thing. How can they know what it's like to be in someone else's shoes unless we show them? Say a child has gotten to the point where they are throwing a tantrum (like at the BBQ in Tsiolkas's book). Actually, if a child is like that, they obviously have not been shown limits by their parents, which is a big problem, but say that child strikes or kicks an adult or another child, the whole, "How would you like it if someone did that to you" in an understanding low voice speech doesn't always work, yes? Especially if they are really young. So, if you show them what it feels like, they get 2 things: they get the shock that Tsiolkas speaks of in his book, and they get first hand understanding of what it feels like.
If it's done out of love, or for a good reason, I don't believe anyone gets scarred for life from a spanking (what I speak of is different from parents who abuse their children). Remember LOVE and LIMITS - it takes both. A big problem I see today is that children grow up with no sense of consequences for their actions. And we wonder why our prisons are overcrowded. Btw, I do not advocate spanking another person's child (unless you work at a school which allows corporal punishment) - you are just asking for trouble.
I woke up thinking about the comment Mr. Tsiolakis made to the effect that, though his parents disciplined him as they had been disciplined "they did not withhold love."
This had deep resonance with my experience of being parented by a mother and father who, while using corporal punishment when my brothers and I broke the rules, loved us without condition.
I never used corporal punishment as a parent, and do not agree with it ---however, I am now also thinking about the difference between arbitrary and random violence in a home vs. the intentional (it hurts me to do this but rules are rules) whippings we received when we knew we had violated family norms.
A very nuanced and important conversation. Thank you.