Lisa Miller: "Heaven"
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-03-25/lisa-miller-heaven
An award-winning journalist draws on history and popular culture, biblical research and everyday beliefs to offer a new understanding of one of the most cherished —and shared— ideals of spiritual life.
Guests
Lisa Miller
religion editor at Newsweek.
Comments
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Hi Diane,
Have any of your guests heard about new exploding ideas of achieving or building heaven, scientifically? "Transhumanists" are people, like Raymond Kurzweil, the famous inventor of Kurzweil musical instruments, author and futurist, that believe progress in most everything is accelerating exponentially. This progress will soon become so fast that we will be able to do trillions of times more than is required to solve problems like death and over crowding. They talk of a Singularity that is near, within the next 50 or 100 years.
Personally, I'm a Mormon, and find these ideas of heaven, the millennium, and so on, to be almost literally the same is those taught in Mormonism. The millennium begins when we finally conquer death, and people are "Changed in a twinkling of an eye" - to use Mormon speak. Then the "work of the millennium" is to further genealogy work and resurrect, and pay back our parents for creating us in the first place.
Not only will resurrection of all ancestors be the goals of these future 'Gods' in embryo, but also perfect justice. In other words, people that lived a much more deserving life will receive much more of a 'reward in heaven'. 'Sinners' will be required to work, perhaps many thousands of years, till they can make a full restitution for any sins they may have committed...
The "World Transhumanists Association" is now simply refereed to as h+, and has an active Mormon affiliate group based in SLC, Utah. (see: http://transfigurism.org/ ) This movement is exploding, and we plan our first Transhumanism and spirituality conference in SLC coinciding with the the LDS 'General Conference' next fall.
Brent Allsop
Mormon Trans. Assoc. Board of Directors
Hello,
When I lost my mother, I came to realize that I couldn't bring my self to find a reasonable logical way to believe that her existence continued in any other way than in my heart in my thoughts in my dreams and my ongoing love and gratitude for her. Heaven is an idea that comes from the yearning to believe that life goes on because we are scared to believe that some day we will stop living, existing. It is a fantasy.
As men has evolved he has developed idea that we go on to give us hope, and an ethical code to live by, but I believe that it is better to just live this present life with an ethical code regardless of heaven or hell, just because it is the only life we know for certain we have. Not because we are going to go to Heaven, if we do good for the sake of our own after life isn't that selfish in a way?
If we think as humanity in general, primitive tribes and people that have no access to any religion, is your god their god? Is G-d the G-d of every single human? if He is, then would He expel them from Heaven? Why? They didn't know He existed.
In the Christian tradition, we often view heaven (as in what happens after you die) in the sense of "when", not "where", due to the second coming of Christ. Romans 8:15-28 comes to mind. http://tinyurl.com/ygz66wc
Did this distinction jump out at you during your research for your book?
Please inform your guest that the killing of baby girls in Arabia pre dated Islam. Islam farbade the practice of killing baby girls.
Most of your discussion about heaven and salvation is based on the idea that it is the human task to attain salvation. I, as a progressive Christian, believe that niether faith nor good works buy us access to heaven. Salvation and heaven of any kind, is according to scripture, a gift of God. God simply chooses to bring us into eternity... all of us!
Not to take away from any of the serious discussion, but I must continue embarrassing myself (after my Trekkie comment yesterday) and quote Kenny Chesney:
"Everybody wanna go to heaven
Beats the other place, there ain't no doubt.
Everybody wanna go to heaven
But nobody wanna go now."
Steven please ask your guest if since the resurrection is something that was copied from numerous religious that pre-date Christ so too its ideas about heaven?
Hey! WISHFUL THINKFUL THINKING!!
From: Mark Given living in Richardson Texas.
EVerything seems to be one version or another of mass and engergy, and the changes in form of these?
MD's et al speculate on scientific interpretations of death, heaven, and near-death.
MOst of what your show today is about is: Wishful THinking (a book titled by Frederick Beuchner by the way ..) another way of saying PIe in the SKy.
Assuming the mass and energy idea, arent' all our thoughts about heaven all wishful thinking? Projections of our best stuff?
&&&& and .... &&&& ....
given the depth of what we understand that we DON"T know, won't it simply BE what it WILL BE? ... Mass and energy, and their changes in form, are not the servants of our happiness or our projections.
(Assumed: mass and energy are the objective reality.)
Jesus' parable of the banquet feast: "Many will come from north and south, east and west and sit downat table with Abraham ... and you yourselves will be thrust out ..."
So, "Let's not talk falsely here, the hour is gettting late!"
OR,
Let's not be overly presumptuous with our Wishful THinking. LEt us be humble about this, allow some mystery, and maybe even offer some sacrifices?
Hello love your show!
I had a long argument with my Dad starting at the age of 12 when I was placed in private school because my parents did not want me bussed. I then for the first time experienced Catholicism. I love it. My Dad and family had been Presbyterians for years. They were vehemently opposed to me going to the “other” church. That is when I began to have a bitter taste for religion due to the mean way they treat anyone who they do not agree with. My Dad health is declining now and he may only be with me in this life a few more weeks.
What I know is that when people cross over they exists, but not in the same way they did when we knew them. Not being able to see totally into their world totally understanding it is difficult. But they are with us.
If you are ever able to quite yourself of all the stuff that tells you this is not possible you might be able to hear them as well.
Great topic.
Ok first of all you are a practicing Jew who lives by the Law of the old test. and you are speaking about spiritual things of the new test that are actually prphetic to christians and end time events such as one world Gov/church. I don't think you are qualified to speak on these matters as a non believer. I think as far as God goes if anything will do nothing will and the fact is the law was given to prove sin and that people need a savior. The modern peoples God is their bellys.
Thank You
I have heard many views about Heaven and come from a Evangelical tradition, which I have somewhat rejected. I do however, still have a view of Heaven and the Afterlife which I combine with my view of a monotheistic God with an empowered Heavenly court which acts with God in a sort of heavenly corporation, and is at the same time incorruptible, meaning that its understanding of evil is beyond normal human understanding, and at the same time spiritual development continues. This is a modified view of the Afterlife which incorporates some ideas taken from Elizabeth Eadie. I think that after we die and receive Judgement and atone for our acts and weaknesses, we are assigned tasks based on our abilities. I also think that we have definite glorified bodies that do not decay, or age, or die, and that we will know persons from our life on earth and others which we knew from a preterrestrial existence. This is complicated by a totally different concept of Time which we on earth just cannot comprehend.
Again, not to be flippant - and no disrespect or offense intended - but the statement:
" 'Sinners' will be required to work...till they can make a full restitution for any sins..."
reminded me of the old bit by Don Novello (as Father Guido Sarducci) in which he said that life is job, and your pay gets docked for every sin you commit. When you die, if your balance is negative you have to go back and work it off by being good - often as a nun. In fact, he said, most nuns are former Mafiosi.
Apparently the female commentator who called in to simply rant and rave about being judged at the gates of heaven ignored a very valid point re: her claim that "it's all right there" in the Bible, written by God, explaining how to get into heaven. What about the family in the African Bush, for example two young children who have lived their lives morally & just but who have never been exposed to the Bible through NO fault of their own (or their parent's). Are they expected to "burn in hell" because they have never "accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior?" WOW. I would like her to explain why a seven year old girl might be ripe to burn simply because she was born somewhere else to someone else. How damned judgemental and UN-CHRISTIAN. Forget Jesus' message of love-we have "rules" here, people!!!!
Apparently the female commentator who called in to simply rant and rave about being judged at the gates of heaven ignored a very valid point re: her claim that "it's all right there" in the Bible, written by God, explaining how to get into heaven. What about the family in the African Bush, for example two young children who have lived their lives morally & just but who have never been exposed to the Bible through NO fault of their own (or their parent's). Are they expected to "burn in hell" because they have never "accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord & Savior?" WOW. I would like her to explain why a seven year old girl might be ripe to burn simply because she was born somewhere else to someone else. How damned judgemental and UN-CHRISTIAN. Forget Jesus' message of love-we have "rules" here, people!!!!
In a very different angle to this discussion. I have a comment to those who only accept tangible (scientific) evidence to guide their view as to whether we exist beyond the death of the body. As funny as this sounds, I have to wonder about the phenomenon of appartitions/ghosts. Considering that this phenomenon as been witnessed throughout the entire history of mankind and assuming that not every one of those thousands of sightings is a trick of one's mind, doesn't this suggest that mankind can transcend its own physical body?
@ astanley45: I agree. I remember wondering the same thing back in Catholic school. What about all the millions (billions?) of people who lived in the past 2000 years, or are alive now, who never heard of Christianity? The infants and children who die of disease or starvation?
Are all these souls in Limbo? (How big is that place, anyway?) Are they recycled as new humans until they get a chance to make an informed decision to accept or reject Jesus Christ - and then if they reject him, they get tossed into hell? What kind of a sick plan is that?
As an atheist, I agree with the callers to today's show who have emphasized the importance of doing the most good that we can within our lifetimes, and feel that experience ends with consciousness. It seems to me patently clear that the concepts of “God” and “Heaven” were created by human beings in order to explain various natural phenomena, address fears, and instill hope (and progressively honed, with the establishment of religious institutions and hierarchies, to try to help keep people/societies in line).
At the same time, I am complete agreement with your guest that belief in a heaven that offers everlasting happiness, peace, and comfort is (understandably) profound among those who have so little of these things in their lives. Indeed, I feel that many secular humanists would do well to seek a more empathetic comprehension of this need to believe, especially among those whose lives are marked by poverty, disenfranchisement, and despair.
What deeply disturbs is the view of such callers as the one who insisted that God has revealed “His” one and only word through the Bible, and that those who do not accept Jesus are utterly lost in spiritual terms, utterly misguided in their own beliefs. That your guest professed herself to be “very sympathetic” to this view is extremely disturbing. This type of unequivocal, exclusivist view of religious truth and salvation boils down to one word: fanaticism. In any form, this is a dangerous and scary thing, rooted in intolerance and narrow-mindedness, calling itself holy truth. From here, it is only a short step to seeing those outside “the fold” as less than fully human…and we know, from the example of history, where this leads.
P.S.: I emphatically second the advice on this discussion thread to "Please inform your guest that the killing of baby girls in Arabia pre-dated Islam. Islam forbade the practice of killing baby girls." This, along with the establishment of women’s rights regarding marriage consent and property inheritance, was among the positive social advances brought by Islam.
Belgis: It is a relief to know that there are people that think like you, I couldn't have put it in better words, you are so right.
Lisa Miller admitted Religion Editor @ Newsweek, admitted jew: analyzes heaven by documenting the comments of Harvard divinity School Dean, vow-o-silence monk, and the like. Lisa Miller is/was agnostic, skeptic, not easily persuaded by magical notions? Isn't there the slightest concern that Ms. Miller's view is influenced by her religion born out by her idea of research? In describing heaven she is describing a religious view of our existence and nothing more. As an atheist I am completely convinced there is no god/heaven/hell. Her point of view is expressed @ the meridian avernue baptist church every sunday. Nothing new. Religion is based on faith not rationality.
I believe atheists can have a tendency to be as narrow minded as the literalists of the bible. To suggest that a lack of brain activity beyond death means that there is no existence beyond death as as presumptuous as the Christians strict view of a heaven. Case in point, the scientific community readily admits that the vast majority of the universe is composed of dark matter that can't (yet) be physically studied. Since it can't be seen and (yet) physically studied should we assume that it doesn't exist?
To Lisa Miller and NPR: Minutes before Oklahoma kicked off to Nebraska in 1971, the Orange Bowl became the site of the most profound sermon I ever heard. A few months before the doctors said that I would die before February 1971. During the bleak and painful time that followed, my search for God began. By December 9th, I was able to walk out of the hospital. By December 26th, the doctors said that I would live a long and healthy life. I celebrated by buying a ticket to the Orange Bowl game. Just before the game, a light rain was falling. I thought to myself: "This experience has made me a religious person. How can I be a religious person? I am much too practical for that!" Although no one else heard my question and no one else could hear the answer, my question was answered immediately: "There is nothing more practical than God." I have trusted God with my life ever since. I can worship in any church but find organized religion very divisive. An afterlife seems as certain to me as the here and now. Thanks for your program today. s/WWWjr.
Brian Lupiani responded with:
>>" 'Sinners' will be required to work...till they can make a full restitution for any sins..."
>reminded me of the old bit by Don Novello (as Father Guido Sarducci) in which he said that life is job, and your pay gets docked for every sin you commit. When you die, if your balance is negative you have to go back and work it off by being good - often as a nun. In fact, he said, most nuns are former Mafiosi.
Let me ask you a question. If you hurt someone, and had the ability to make a restitution for such, what would you do? Nothing? For how long? If someone else, say some God or something, paid for your wrong to that person, would that be in any way just? Would it make you feel better and/or relieve your guilt?
And of course, being a nun, sacrificing yourself, and so on, never did anything for people that have been sinned against or hurt, if you ask me. You don't die for those you love, that just makes things worse. You live and serve them.
And I love and agree with all the other great stuff you've said above.
Brent Allsop
Yesterday I complimented the host for cutting off the man who called to make racists statements. Sadly, today I must criticize the host for not doing the same to the woman who called merely to sermonize. The full gist of her "comment" was clear within one minute, there was no need to allow her to go on sermonizing ad nauseum. I realize we want to encourage free speech, but there are reasonable limits!
As for her "sermon", the simple response is: I don't believe it. Madam, you may believe the Bible is the inerrant, literal, word of God (despite the plethora of evidence that it is not), but what you believe is not the same thing as fact .
And for those who find this offensive, answer me this: what is the ratio of a circle's diameter to its circumference? According to the "infallible" Bible the answer is 3 (1 Kings 7:24 and 2 Chronicles 4:2). The correct answer, of course, is Pi (3.1416 . . . . ). By the way, the two books also contradict each other (knops vs. oxen). What a splendidly reliable basis on which to gamble one's soul (or control our lives, as the "Christian Nationalists" want)!
As for the question which seems to occupy much of the Comments here: is there a heaven or an afterlife. My answer is: who knows? There is no solid evidence either way.
Someone cited thousands of years of reports of ghosts. Well there have also been such reports of vampires, werewolves, fairies, UFO's, etc., etc., etc. Does that "prove" these things are true? For centuries people believed the Earth was flat, but that belief didn't flatten the Earth by one degree. People believe a lot of things, some of it is nonsense and some it turns out to be true; but without evidence there is no way to know which is which.
Religious questions are, by definition, beyond proof, beyond evidence. They concern things "beyond the physical world", and therefore no proof is possible. That's why religion is a matter of faith . That doesn't make it false or true, good or bad. But it does mean that faith cannot be the basis for ruling a society or making laws. That's where separation of church and state comes in. We can live together peacefully in America precisely because no one can impose their faith on anyone else. Should that change, the second Civil War will begin!
Etaoin Shrdlu wrote:
> As for the question which seems to occupy much of the Comments here: is there a heaven or an afterlife. My answer is: who knows? There is no solid evidence either way.
As far as progress and science goes, I completely disagree. For some reason, humanity in general can’t see the factual progress going with everything all around them. They act like this little ‘recession’ with it’s 10% unemployment, is the worst of times. But compare that to the depression of the last generation, and it’s 20+% unemployment, and the ever more devastating economic collapses before that one… Crime rates are at or near record lows, productivity keeps on improving, exponentially, prices of almost everything, when taking the long view, are falling, they have to keep readjusting IQ scores because we keep on getting smarter, grow domestic product, per capita, of every nation in the world is exploding. The number of people dying in wars is comparatively near zero. Life expectancy has more doubled in less than 100 years. And this is just a few things, one can go on forever with all this, if people just aren’t so primitively blind to it all.
In short, this little ‘recession’ that everyone thinks is so terrible, is a real ‘heaven’ compared to what existed 500, 1000, and more years ago. And the pace of exponential progress of most everything hasn’t even really kicked in like it is about to.
The small step required to get from where we are now, to achieve immortal life, is nothing compared to what life has already overcome over the last billion years. Absolutely nothing has been able to stop the progress of Mother Nature, and the remaining step we have to take is nothing in comparison.
If you ask me, to say that there is “no solid evidence’ for such progress, or for the heaven we have now compared to the past, and what we will soon have, is just completely head in the sand blind irrationalism.
Brent Allsop
I am finding this show rather ethnocentric and heavily biased towards Western religions. The explanation of Buddhist prespective of the after life was limited and watered down. I personally subscribe to Buddhist thoughts because it's a path that is not black and white and really offers to look at our reality adn that so much of it is based on our preception and to really focus on what we do here and now as people.
to the athesist caller who thinks Christians don't read other beliefs here you go.....
If you're a follower you are his sheep it's as SIMPLE AS THAT. if you ARE NOT a follower you belong to someone else Read the book of JOHN A WITNESS. IF this was a court of law JESUS HAD MANY WITNESSES remember. It doesn't matter if you're good, nice, you give to charities to get tax right offs, or even if you're a good dresser. You're not entering a "spritual heaven" if you fail to believe in his message and his existance and that in FACT he's GOD. Sometimes the truth is soooo simple it's hard to fathom. Well here it goes again, You either are a follower or you're not what do have to loose.
if you do believe then you're receptive and you belong to his sheep.
It's EXACTLY like when you're in a crowded store and you just lost your daughter, YOU CAN'T FIND HER ANYWHERE SO WHAT DO YOU DO YOU SCREAM OUT HER NAME AND .....she hears you and only you. She belongs to you. That's what Jesus is doing for his sheep. I'm his sheep it's too bad all you folks can't hear the same thing I hear.
heaven on earth doesn't exists since it's earth. Earth is beautiful and Earth is ugly just like a human body is. You're using Jesus' words and twisting it to "accomodate" your lack of belief. It's very unfortunte, but I blame the fact that you may not be hearing the same thing I am.
Also, you don't have to blame your grandparents on you not believeing in Jesus and the fact of his existance. Just like you dont' have to blame your parents on your lack of success, or health. You can make changes to your health like you can make changes to your job situation. You go to school to advance yourself unlike our parents then guess what you're on a different track then your parents. You HAVE CONTROL. Good thing is that you're still living so you have an opportunity to change. Because once a nonbeliever dies they DIE. Once a believer passes they rest LIVING WITH GOD for all eternity. IT'S OK IF YOU DONT' BELIEVE THIS IT JUST MEANS YOU'RE A NON-BELIEVER. THAT'S IT.
Jesus pitched eternity and I believe him because HE unlike any other "so-called diety" was born from a virgin, never on earth did he sit on a golden thrown LIKE KRISHNA, HE healed the sick, and most importantly if he could do all of that why did HE ALSO THEN "VOLUNTEER TO NAIL HIMSELF TO THE CROSS THIS IS A FACT." HE VOLUNTEERED!! PONTIS PILOT'S PERSONAL JOURNAL DICTATED THIS NOT JUST THE BIBLE. THIS IS FACT. POINTIS PILOT IS NOT CHRISTIAN. IF you're superman and someone is trying to kill you, logically you would fly away Jesus made a decision to stay and nail himself to a cross in lieu of our forever future sins. that means i'll sin tomorrow probably because i'm a human and that's what we all do so that when you and I lack faith sometimes and that's considered a sin we dont' have to go out and sacrifice a goat everytime....
yes the evidence is that Jesus pitched a heaven. that's evidence. if someone told you there was a burning building on your block but the person who told you is known as the neighborhood liar would you believe him no. Well Jesus did unexplainable things on this Earth, science can't explain his birth, the fact that he raise someone from death, healing etc. He's blievable. Pointis Pilot wrote about Jesus in his journal not the Bible in his journal and how he was born from a Virgin without sexual conception. If you dont' believe it then you're simply an unbeliever and that's too bad. Hitler also pitched peace just like buddha. they are both HUMAN not GODS. Who or why are you following another Human on determining your future existance. This is discussion is hilarious absolutely hilarious. All these so-called Intelligent people who read everything other than the history of Jesus lack so much and yet it's so simple. oh well.