The Catholic Church and the Child Sexual Abuse Scandal
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-03-23/catholic-church-and-child-sexual-abuse-scandal
Some say Pope Benedict’s letter of apology for child-sexual abuse by priests in Ireland did not go far enough. Addressing scandals shaking the Roman Catholic Church across Europe.
Guests
Joseph Bottum
Editor of First Things, the nation’s largest magazine of religion and public life. He is a commentator on Catholic Affairs.
Rev. Thomas Doyle
Canon lawyer, addiction therapist and advisory to abuse victims. He worked in the Vatican's U.S. embassy from 1981-1986.
David Gibson
Covers religion for Politics Daily. He is the author of "The Rule of Benedict: Pope Benedict XVI and His Battle with the Modern World."
Comments
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I am (like Michael Moore) a recovering Catholic.
I do not believe in the hierarchy, pope, bishops .... I stay in the church reluctantly because of my husband's faith, I like my parish priest and have many friends in the community.
Honestly, I would rather belong to different church - probably Methodist or Lutheran.
I was a victim of sexual crimes committed by a priest. I cleared my work calendar this morning so that I can listen in to the discussion.
This is not a scandal, scandals fade away. The problem of sexual crimes committed by priests and covered up by the church hierarchy is a crisis, one that has been going on for many decades.
As long as the hierarchy deals with the problem as a risk management issue, the environment of secrecy will continue to allow for rape and molestation to continue.
Michael Moore was right with his comment that it is somehow understandable that the priests that molest and rape children are sick people who should languish forever, all alone in a little cell.
The problem is the Church. The hierarchy are supposed to be God's own special representatives. How can any reasonable person buy into such a church that tolerates such violence against the innocent (and that is exactly what the Pope guy is doing).
I have a question that no one can seem to answer, and I'm being sincere. I hear a lot about these "priests" sexually abusing children, but I never heard of anyone facing any legal consequences. Surely, by now some names have surfaced. Is the Catholic Church higher than legal authority? Is there no way to subpoena leaders to tell them who these people are? I honestly don't know, but I think something should be done. This just keeps happening. Thanks in advance for any answers.
Ted Paxton
Charlotte, NC
There have been criminal and civil cases against individual priests and their protectors. Many prosecutions are hampered by the expiration of the statutes of limitations in many states. If you want to know, by name, who these accused priests are you can go to http://www.bishopaccountability.org.
It struck me, reading about the latest struggle within the Catholic church, that we are facing parallel struggles not only in other Christian churches but within many big institutions and corporations world-wide. They have simply lost their honor and the respect of many decent people.
Reading the early history of Christianity reveals the gradual corporatization of a belief system and, dare I say, the early loss of Christ during the formation of the religion bearing his name. Bumper stickers here in Texas bemoan the loss of Christ in Christmas. Seems to me Christ was lost long ago but continues to be used by two millenia's-worth of church. They have him to build a power structure and inflict some of the worst horrors in western and middle-eastern history. The abuse of children is part of a long line of cruelties and exercises of malign power.
I haven't heard anything about the possibility that the problem is systemic. How long do we think men's sexuality can be banned and ignored before it is transformed into the perversions and abuses that we now observe in the Catholic church? I wonder how many abuses are occurring in third world countries, where the Catholic church is stronger and the rule of law less pervasive. I doubt this problem can simply be solved by culling the sick, the church itself is sick.
Why aren't more priests in jail?
I just don't understand why more priests are being prosecuted for these abuses. What gives the "church" the right to adjudicate child abuse internally and to simply reassign abusers across state and national boarders?
Where does this right and privilege exist?
Angelo, Silver Spring, MD
These are CRIMINAL actions, not just sexual actions as stated on the show today.
If it was ANY OTHER group that perpetuated these CRIMES, it would have been prosecuted as a criminal organization and should be prosecuted from the top on down, world wide.
Rod
Fort Worth, TX
I teach organizational behavior classes at a university. It is clear to me that this is a result of the structure of the church. Phil Zimbardo, in his Stanford Prison experiments ( http://www.prisonexp.org/ ) showed the powerful effects of structures on human behavior. When people are placed in positions of unfettered power they are much more likely to engage in abusive behaviors. This is exacerbated by the self-image of "goodness" that is allied with the position of a priest, which tends to help them minimize their perceptions of wrongdoing.
Which of the guests said this is not a sin because it's a disease? Is this really the position the Church takes.
Unless you are totally psychotic, there are moments of lucidity when the perpetrator realizes the horror of what he (or she) has done. It is at that point that a person must take responsibility. They could have made sure that they were in a position where they would never have contact with children.
Now we have sexual addiction, so apparently, men who violate their marriage vows are also not sinning. Kleptomaniacs apparently don't sin either, and so on.
The issue of "celibacy" as cause of, contributor to, or solution to clergy abusing children is a canard. The problem is that the abusers are pedophiles -- sexual abusers of young children. That is their sexuality. How would lifting the celibacy requirement from priests "cure" their pedophilia?
I am getting sick listening to this crimeful abuse in the Catholic church. These guys belong in prison. If it were your husband, Diane, that is where they would put him and rightfully so.
I understand the hesitation to use excommunication, but why are these priests not being defrocked? Does no one see a problem with a person remaining in a position of leadership under these circumstances?
Thank you so much for addressing this difficult but important issue of our time. I hope it is helpful for your listeners.
I am a former practicing Catholic. I loved the church as a child but lost respect for it because of its disregard for people. This scandal is an example of that along with the closing of schools and churches because of finances. The church is absurdly rich.
Why are these priests not prosecuted? There are no recent cases? Put them in jail like other pedophiles. They are even worse than your average pedophile. They are trusted as caring for their flock while they are doing horrible,unthinkable abuse to children. Where is the law? Is it different for priests?
I am so angry at this abuse.
Roseann
Raleigh, N.C.
We had a priest in our parish about 5 years ago that was arrested for soliciting sex from a minor. He was placed in jail for 3/4 years and deported to his country of origin. Upon arrival he was appointed to a parish where he is the head priest. The cover up continues and it is "blessed" by the bishops of the church. I confronted the priest in my parish and he told me that the decision was made in another country, he had not saying on the decision, and washed his hands.
We had a priest in our parish about 5 years ago that was arrested for soliciting sex from a minor. He was placed in jail for 3/4 years and deported to his country of origin. Upon arrival he was appointed to a parish where he is the head priest. The cover up continues and it is "blessed" by the bishops of the church. I confronted the priest in my parish and he told me that the decision was made in another country, he had not saying on the decision, and washed his hands.
The resulting shame of sexual abuse by a priest is sometimes made the more intense by immediate/extended families so dependent on the Catholic Church for spiritual protection that the incident(s) are buried, even to the extent of refusing to recognize the distress in the victim(s) or to openly recognize that the situation is real or that discussion would or could have any value.
When the history of abuses and cover-up in the U.S. came to light, the Church in Rome said this was an American problem. Our culture was at fault; our bishops then said it was the Church's tolerance of homosexuality that was responsible for these abuses. The bishops at that point (early 1990's) sought to purge homosexuals from the priesthood and then assumed this fixed the problem. This was a red herring that did not satisfy, so victims took legal action.
Now that the facts indicate this is not a uniquely American problem, perhaps the Church can finally deal with the real problem, which is the presence of pedophiles in the priesthood and the sins of those who saw what was going on and did not stop it.
Pedophilia is not a uniquely Catholic problem, and neither are the cover ups. Similar incidents with other Christian denominations and religious orders (e.g., Orthodox rabbis) have since come to light. However, the Catholic Church did provide unique opportunities for lone, trusted men to be in contact with children, especially boys, for significant time periods, and without supervision. A pedophile could not ask for a "better" set-up.
In addition to the physical and psychological harms caused by the pedophile, the position of trust they occupied as priests made the harm worse. The victims of abuse were further harmed because these pedophiles were perceived as saintly men by their parents and the Catholic community at large.
To find out that their superiors knew what was going on, covered it up, and continued to put pedophiles in contact with children is a further violation not just of the individual victims, but of the entire Church – the laity and fellow clerics. Further harm has been done to the Church’s credibility because of these cover ups. The pope needs to meditate on these harms until he fully understands how others have suffered because of these actions and acknowledge that the Church hierarchy has been complicit in these harms.
A life long Catholic, I am horrified by the systemic abuse of children and the cover up. The fact is that these are crimes, and should be treated as such. Not only the abuse, but the cover up should be prosecuted as child endangerment.
While I have disagreed in the past with the Church on various matters, I always respected the bishops and Pope. That is no longer true. I cannot respect these people (I know they are not all responsible, but the institution needs to be completely reformed). The absolute hubris of these men to think that they can hear the confessions of the people, provide moral guidance to the people, while they engage in criminal activity, while they have knowledge of criminal activity, abuse of children and do nothing to protect the children.
I have many friends who have left the Church because of this. I love my Mass, my Catholic rituals - I think the guilty bishops and priests should leave the Church, should be excommunicated.
In general, the nuns who do all the work, actually minister to people - teach, nurse, build, comfort etc. "get it". The power hungry men do not.
I'd like to suggest that the real problem here is deeper and more profound than has been reflected in the discussion. Catholic clergy and their hierarchy have, in general, lacked the kind of personal judgment that would alert them to: a) how wrong and harmful this kind of abuse is to victims of it; but also b) how lacking in personal maturity and judgment these clergy, and their hierarchy not only are, but have always been. They have needed to be told by others how wrong it is.
We're talking about a developmental level of personal, psychological maturity that involves development of a capacity for empathy that sometimes does not develop in those who are still immature or developmentally arrested, for whatever reasons. I would submit they simply have not been able to see or appreciate the effects of their own invasive, controlling, violations of personal boundaries upon their victims. They themselves are immature and lacking in personal judgment.
I’ve had much experience with this culture. I was a Catholic seminarian for 11 years, a member of a religious order for six. I was in schools taught only by priests and nuns for 20 years, from when I was 6 to 26. I experienced this culture first hand.
I now research and study of human development. I recognize now how almost all of the priests and nuns to whom I was exposed lacked interpersonal curiosity and/or genuine interest in or understanding of others’ personal developmental or psychological needs. They certainly did not mean to be bad, but in effect they were quite self-centered and narcissistic. They were often harmful to others in ways they themselves did not understand.
This I think is the real problem--the immaturity of the whole authoritarian R.C. subculture. It has traditionally devalued feelings and personal needs in general, in a way that is both bad psychology and bad theology. I think we need to shift our discourse to this more profound level.
To continue a bit, I think one constructive way we can all respond to this issue is to let ourselves take a good fresh look at the actual phenomena involved in this, and study it and learn from it. What we now know has happened, on a very large scale, what does this say about the nature of the clergy and the Church's modes of governing?
What I see here, as I indicated above, is a profound and pervasive subculture of psychological immaturity. The question of psychological maturity / immaturity is certainly key here, but is only very poorly understood, if at all, in our secular culture as well.
Without suggesting answers here, let me at least call attention to one man's thoughtful inquiry, a quarter of a century ago, into the nature of evil. I've just been reading Scott Peck's People of the Lie, and think that what he writes there on a phenomenal level is not a bad place to begin. (I disagree with him on the matter of personal freedom and choice, however, as I don't think that persons at that level of development have yet attained a level of truly having much freedom of choice. I think that comes later.)
FWIW.
If you can be excummunicated from the church for getting a divorce why in God's name aren't these priest excumunicated for these horrible acts!!!!
So many comments throughout this discussion (I caught the last 30 minutes or so) made me angry. I am an Episcopalian, so I have not had any first hand experience with the decades-long crimes being committed by priests and bishops in the Catholic church. I am sure there have been similar crimes committed in our church, but they are not as wide spread and I have not heard of any that included cover up by a bishop.
Specifically, I found the comment comparing men who commit atrocious crimes against children to legislators who can't seem to get anything accomplished to be ludicrous. The panelist then compared parents who don't leave the church to people who re-elect their own representatives. Once again, ludicrous. Your faith is the basis of who you are; it is difficult to just walk away from something (a religious organization) that has supported your faith throughout your life.
The problem is not the church, it is the employees of the church. In any other organization, men (or women) who committed similar crimes against children in their own organization would be fired.
Another issue that was not discussed but which bothers me is the Catholic Church's recent announcement that they will allow married Episcopal priests to become priests at Catholic parishes. So many problems could be solved by the Pope allowing Catholic priests to marry.
I wish Diane had called these men on the comments they made.
I think that by removing the celibacy requirement and allowing priests to be married you would attract faithful, loving men who would love to serve Jesus Christ and would be excellent role models for the Catholic children (and adults) they would serve. But most modern christian men want to share their life with a christian wife in a loving, married relationship. Right now the Catholic church has a hard time attracting anyone to be priests. I have attended a local Catholic church with our exchange student who is Catholic, and every mass we pray for more young men to seek to become priests. Very sad.
MTO - I completely agree - I know many priests who are in many ways, are psychologically still adolescents. They have no experience of authentic adult emotionally intimate relationships. They enter the seminary before they are psychological adults, and nothing in their education or training nurtures them to become so. They have no children, so they really do not understand the depth of a parent's love for a child, and the pain of a parent when their child is hurt. They certainly no nothing about marriage and what it takes to love and commit to a partner for a lifetime.
People of the Lie is an excellent book.
I tuned in late today. Did anyone refer to the Bible and what Christ said about this? I didn't hear any of the so-called religious "experts" mention any scriptures about this. In Matthew 18: 1-7, 10, and 17 Christ makes it very clear how offenders will be judged and how they should be excommunicated by the church (vs. 17) "as an heathen man and a publican". When "lay" members are guilty of this outrageous crime, you can be sure Catholic church leaders excommunicate them and condemn them to hell for a 'mortal' sin. If he is the true "head" of a Christian church, the Pope has no choice. He must either cleanse his organization of all priests, bishops, cardinals, and other leaders proven guilty of any sort of sexual abuse or relinquish his authority by retiring.
Thank you Diane for airing this show, and thank you Tom Doyle for saying it like it 'is'.
The laws need to be changed to be able to hold the criminals, who covered up this abuse of thousands of children, accountable. There is way too much at stake: the safety of innocent kids !!!
Hi, There is a great Frontline program about the church and abusing children. You can watch it for free online: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/handofgod/view/?utm_campaign=vie...