The Diane Rehm Show

Wow. jgarbuzq and jill are true believers. That is good.

First, regarding Jill's fear of the boogy-man Hamas and all the other bad-guy Iran's, the single-state, single vote for all solution would make all of that bad stuff disappear, don't you think -- it sort of takes away the gripe? Also, don't you think the Palestinians have a reason to feel a little sore and fearfull about the boogy-man Israel?

Second, regarding jgarbuzq's enthusiastic claim that Israel is the universal template of civil rights and justice, my comments have been about the right to vote and how Israel has limited the participation of non-jewish minorities to always be minorities -- thus always perserving the jewish nature of the state, which you state you are very proud of. Thus, again, you seem to agree with my case.

Remeber that the Diane's Palestinian guest stated that his family lived in Jerusalem for 600 years. That is a long time. Certainly, there have been lots of jewish people and non-jewish people, chirstian and muslim, that have lived in all of Palestine for all of history. But, don't you think the squaters rights go to the people who where there before WWII, jewish and non-jewish?

But, since that is not possible, the only way to a solution is not two-state nor a jewish single state, rather, I surmise, a single secular state based on votes for all.

Jews lived in Baghdad for 2500 years. So what part of Iraq are the Jews entitled to as a state? Jews lived in the Rhineland in Germany for 1800 years. So what part of Germany does it have to grant for a Jewish state in Germany? Jews lived in Poland for 600 years. SO what part of Poland can Jews claim as their state? Jews lived in Medina (Yathrib) and some say even founded it, so why isn't Medina the capital of a Jewish state in Arabia? And the list goes on. And what part of America is to become an Irish state, or an African state, or a Hispanic state? Yes, Arabs lived in the Land of Israel for a long time, I will concede. But what does that have to do with granting them a state, and Jerusalem as its capital?? This arguement that people lived in a place for a long time and therefore it entitled them to statehood holds no water in history.

Carl, correction: I didn't call Hamas the 'boogy man'.. The history of Hamas is VERY interesting.. (Israeli encouragement as an alternative to PLO, eg. , read about it)

as for jgarbuzq's positions, i heard a lot of them growing up. They tire me.
I don't have time to say more, but many Jews already have. Our voices are out there too. AIPAC gets the press, but we exist too and always have. And I wrote because we get drowned out. Not all Jews are Zionists, and not all Zionists are Jews. I just wanted that out there. DO with it as you wish.

There are many Jewish scholars and academics who have advanced the positions I've taken here, and you can find their books in Borders, Amazon, etc. if your mind is open. BUt if you have to read only that which supports what your emotions make easier to believe, don't bother.

As for a single secular equal state? sure, I think that's the only way out now anyway. But aside from all of that, I can't process what it means for a state to be Jewish? with Rabbis at the border deciding who is Jewish enough? oy vey iz mir!

Goodnight Folks.

No, I'm not a native, aboriginal American. I'm just a citizen of the United States. I don't claim the US as my homeland. As a homeland, it belongs to the true aboriginal natives. And if the Palestinian Arabs are to get a state with part of Jerusalem as its capital, why not follow up with a native American state, say The United Tribes of America, and grant them 22% of US soil and part of Washington DC for their own capital? After all, they've been occupied for over 200 years and have been here for more than 13,000 thousand!

I agree with the commenters who stated that that the real problem in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is political and not territorial. But they failed to really elucidate the intricate and complicated nature of these political conflics both nation to nation and within each individual country.

The name Hamas was not metioned one time during the discussion. How can Israel and the poorest Jews who have been terrorized in Southern Israel trust that political processes can enforce any agreements when radical religious and militant factions of Hamas will not agree to recognize previous agreements, the right of Israel to exist and to repudiate armed rebellion? I believe that terrorism has driven many of the leftists (like me) to the right because of failures like Gaza.

Then there are right wing Israeli factions, who support the settlements and will never accept a divided Jerusalem. They believe that "transfer" of Palestinians to Jordon is the solution. Unfortunately, the right wing faction of the Israeli public made a huge faux pas last week. But do not mistake this recalcitrance as the will of an entire nation. Many Israelis are sick of the settlers.

I have been to East Jerusalem and I know that many of the Palestinians are yearning for peace, just as much of Israel's population is ready to cede land for a peace that can guarantee security.

Israel is a solid ally of the US, and contributes to our country in so many ways: as a democracy, fiscally especially IT, medical science, yes, espionage, patents and literacy. I hope that the media incompetence of the housing announcement acts as an opportunity for Israeli introspection and clarity.

My solution to the problem as someone who is both Zionist and pro-Palestinian state (responsible) is the spiritual path. When both peoples can cry and mourn together, perhaps there will be a chance that mutual trust can slowly deveolp so that all can have a better future.

While public opinion surveys show that many , if not most, Israelis at one time were very willing to give up the occupied territories , Israeli gov't is , as a democracy, representative of those who voted for it. Netanyahu wouldn't be where he is (riding a tiger) trying to appease all the political coalitions he needs to appease to avoid becoming un-elected, if most Israelis were sick of the territories. That has to tell you something about the politics in Israel. Folks may be sick of the settlers, but not enough of them are sick enough--- apparently.

Your comment that you are pro a 'responsible' Palestinian state seems a little defensive. Of course we 'd like to see all states be 'responsible' and that means Israel as well. Land grabs that have been going on since 1967 seem hardly responsible. Starving Gazans is hardly responsible. (I hold Egypt responsible for this as well of course) .

Look, terrorism (besides being immoral!) is not an effective way to make friends and influence people but the fear that is used by those who want to portray Israel as a weak innocent David vs a Goliath of what, 22? Arab states (as it's said by the right wing) , is just manipulative. There is also state -sponsored terrorism as well... the taking of land, the closing off of borders that permit the flow of goods/services, and targetted assassinations. I was so disheartened to hear that many folks in Israel hail what happened in Dubai, jokingly now wearing fashions (eye glasses and so on) that reflect the assassins' supposed look.
This is not an Israel it seems where those who are sick of the territories dominate the marketplace of ideas. It's an Israel that is in need of a good couch. Those who are reduced to venerating that kind of militancy need to wonder who wins the battle and who wins the war.

Do I think there's an easy answer now that the polarization is so complete? no, but I know what not to do and I know where to begin. That much is obvious.

As for my Sedar? My Judiaism comes from my Orthodox grandfather who was a shohet from a shtetl, and at no time did he teach me to read the Bible as literal. I was taught that what really matters to God is how we treat other humans (check out the Kol Nidre prayer, e.g. ).
and while standing on one foot repeat Hillel's maxim, if i'm not for myself..but if I'm only for myself... and if not now, when?

Have a good day.

Thank you Carl. Yes, IMAGINE, a song that brings tears to my eyes everytime I hear it!

The problem in the conflict is very simple. The Arab occupiers refuse to accept Jewish rights to their homeland. They deny Jewish nationhood and Jewish rights totally. They even have taken all the Jewish prophets and called them Muslims. The robbery from the Jewish tradition and the Jewish land is total, and to step back and admit that Israel is Jewish land puts a bullet in their theology. It wouldn't matter how small ISrael would be, they would never accept a Jewish state. In fact, the Royal Peel Commission in 1938, in responding to Arab terror in Palestine in the 1930s, proposed the first partition plan in which the Jews would have gotten a state even smaller than the west bank today. But the Arabs didn't even bother to come meet Minister Peel to even listen to what he was proposing! The very idea of a Jewish state is anathema or pork to them, and they will never swallow it. So it comes down to an unstoppable force (Islamism) versus an immovable object (Zionism). The collision has been avoided to a degree, but ultimately must come to a head, sooner or later. I personally prefer sooner when Israel still has a fighting chance. Later might be too late.

Well, we may not have a Pope but any Christian who denies Jesus cannot seriously call himself a Christian.
If your Jewish education is deep you cannot deny that the Land of Israel is the Jewish homeland. Jews may agree or disagree over whether the Messiah must come first or come later, but denying the right to the Jewish homeland is like a Christian denying Jesus.
As for who decides, Jewish law makes if very clear. There are only two ways to be a Jew: (1) you were born to a Jewish mother, or (2) you were initiated into the tribe by the rabbinate by undergoing the trials and tribulations of "conversion." It's been decided. You can object or accept, but Jewish law is pretty clear and unambiguous.
As for secular, political Zionism, I am very much aware that the majority of Jews opposed it, and most Jews who fled to Israel did so when their neighbors decided it for them. The German Jews felt they were Germans, until Hitler informed them that they absolutely were not. Those who made it to Palestine did not want to come; they had no place left to escape to. As my mother taught me, you don't decide. Your neighbors will decide the matter for you.

If they were born to Jewish fathers, then they are NOT Jews - unless they have undergone the orthodox rabbinical conversion. Deal with it! They may identify themselves as Jews, probably out of love for their fathers (which is understandable and heartfelt), but the reality is they are not Jews. They can consider themselves lucky.
Abraham was the father of both the Israelites and Ishmaelites, but it was through the mothers, Sarah and Hagar, that differentiated them.
I suggest to someone born to a non-Jewish mother and Jewish father to go to a Church or Mosque and find themselves. Being a Jew is a burden and not for everyone. It was never meant for everyone, and they should thank God for it. The Laws of Noah are more than adequate for Gentiles. What is not good is to rebel or corrupt fundamental tribal Jewish law because they find it inconvenient, irksome or non-accepting. It is what it is. it is a small land for a small people. I can empathize but not agree to the corruption of the legal system that has kept us together as a separate and unique tribe. Every tribe is unique in its own way, and I do not advocate breaking anyone else's tribal laws to suit me.

Tourists-- by Yehuda Amichai

Visits of condolence is all we get from them.
They squat at the Holocaust Memorial,
They put on grave faces at the Wailing Wall
And they laugh behind heavy curtains
In their hotels.
They have their pictures taken
Together with our famous dead
At Rachel's Tomb and Herzl's Tomb
And on Ammunition Hill.
They weep over our sweet boys
And lust after our tough girls
And hang up their underwear
To dry quickly
In cool, blue bathrooms.

Once I sat on the steps by agate at David's Tower,
I placed my two heavy baskets at my side. A group of tourists
was standing around their guide and I became their target marker. "You see
that man with the baskets? Just right of his head there's an arch
from the Roman period. Just right of his head." "But he's moving, he's moving!"
I said to myself: redemption will come only if their guide tells them,
"You see that arch from the Roman period? It's not important: but next to it,
left and down a bit, there sits a man who's bought fruit and vegetables for his family.

I agree with you entirely re Zionism and the persons who are Jewish. Unfortunately Israel has come to mean the Jewish state. To me that harms Jews and ironically creates a state based on racism.