Perspectives on the U.S.- Israel Rift
http://thedianerehmshow.org/shows/2010-03-17/perspectives-us-israel-rift
U.S. Special Envoy George Mitchell with Israeli Minister of Defense Ehud Barak before their meeting in Tel Aviv, Israel July 26, 2009.
Matty Stern/State Department , U.S. Embassy Tel Aviv
U.S special envoy George Mitchell's Middle East trip was put on hold because Israel would not halt plans for the building of new residences in East Jerusalem. The latest on the dispute and what it could mean for U.S. objectives in the region.
Guests
Ziad Asali
president and founder of The American Task Force on Palestine.
Aaron David Miller
public policy fellow at the Woodrow Wilson International Center for Scholars; former adviser to six U.S. Secretaries of State on Arab-Israeli negotiations; author, most recently of "The Much Too Promised Land: America's Elusive Search for Arab-Israeli Peace."
David Makovsky
senior fellow and director of the Project on the Middle East Peace Process at the Washington Institute for Near East Policy and co-author with Dennis Ross of "Myths, Illusions and Peace: Finding a New Direction for America in the Middle East."
Comments
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What does Isreal have to do to have the US stop their aid?:
Igrore international law?
Use white phosphorous and cluster bombs on civilians?
Directly insult the US?
Commit acts of genocide if not the crime itself?
Incite hatred against the US in many countries that would otherwise be allies?
Provide false intelligence such as the "weapons of mass destruction"?
I'm sorry ... they have already tried all that.
This issue is completely imponderable:
imponderable that Israel will stop the settlements,
imponderable how the US might back away from complete support of Israel,
imponderable how the Palestinians can engage in peace negotiations as the settlements continue.
What 'will be' (not 'should be') the real solution?
Outrageous. The U.S. should withdraw Mitchell and tell the Israelis that until they get their act together and decide as a people whether peaceful settlement with the Palestinians is in their best interests the U.S.will be forced to sit on the sidelines. Failure to take this position will further reduce U.S. standing on the world stage, if that is possible. It won't happen. The Jewish lobby in Congress is top dog.
Obama needs to be honest with the parties and call them out when they take steps that frustrate peace. That's what he's done on this new settlement in East Jerusalem. He deserves American public support for doing this.
Absolutely. Not a shred of integrity -- if there ever was one! -- remains in our relationship with the Israeli government.
Pure quality is the only solution in Isreal. The "Two State Solition" ignores pure equality among religions, races, and people. Folks should be able to live in harmony as one people while keeping true respect for cultures as nieighbores.
Isreal now is a cousin of Jim Crow. Peace will only happen in any society when race, religion, or gender do not matter. The United States today represents a growing, improving history providing proven fundamentals of peace under everybody's Heaven.
Gee could this mean that Israel and it's supporters may FINALLY be seen as not the only "chosen people?"
Let's support the Obama administration in standing up strong to Israel and withholding $ till they agree to abide by the agreements they made many times in the past.. Mitchell, Wye, yaddah yaddah. and please, let us in our own minds understand that Zionism is NOT Judaism. They are NOT the same thing and to be anti Zionist is NOT to be anti Jewish, for goodness sake! The Zionists have coopted our identity. Let's get it back!
The USA needs to STOP USAID to Israel. See how much aid from your tax dollars go to Israel: http://aidtoisrael.org/
http://ifamericansknew.org/
We need to see the problems clearly. As an American Christian who has spent significant time in the Middle East the Arab world question USA credibility because of our blind support to Israel.
The Walt/ Mersheimer book on the Israel Lobby is also daring and a great read, along with Norman Finkelstein's writing.
The Arabs should be grateful for the trillions of dollars Americans have sent to the Arab world in exchange for their only useful product: oil. The fact is, that 100 years ago, Rockefeller made the US dependent on internal combustion engine, which is why Edison didn't talk to them for decades. Thanks to the US development of the oil fields, the Arab population of the Middle East grew from 22 million after WWI to over 320 million today! Those palaces all over Saudi Arabia, Iraq and the Gulf States didn't come from shishkabab. What Israel gets from the US is peanuts, and it doesn't even really need it. The US sells the Arab countries 3 times as much arms as it gives or sells to Israel, and the reason it gives Israel any aid at all is so that AIPAC will not block much larger arms sales to the Arabs in exchange for this oil of theirs.
We could have had electric cars 100 years ago, but we chose oil for the interests of certain magnates both in Texas and in the ME. Even if Israel disappears, America will pay for this mistake for decades to come.
I believe in the 22 state solution. Twenty one (21) for the Arabs, and one (1) for the Jews. I do not believe that creating a 22nd Arab state and redividing Jerusalem is going to solve anything. In fact, it will lead to a nuclear war. Jerusalem is the only Jewish capital of the sole Jewish state, and will not cede part of it to be the capital of yet another 22nd Arab state. No way, Jose. Let the US cut off aid if it doesn't like it, because it ain't going to happen. Period.
Jerusalem was never supposed to be divided. In 1948 the United Nations proposed dividing the Holy Land into one Jewish and one Muslim state with an INTERNATIONALLY GOVERNED JERUSALEM.
While Israel accepted this plan, her Arab neighbors didn't. They had been recruited by the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, a personal adviser to Adolph Hitler, to finish Hitler's work and cleanse the middle east of Jews. During this war of 1948, or Naqba as the Palestinians call it, just as many native Jews lost their land. 800,000 Jews were forced out of the neighboring countries, many were killed. Jordan captured East Jerusalem, evicted the Jewish residents, and forbade Jews to visit the Western Wall of Solomon's temple.
After the 1967 war, Israel took East Jerusalem from Jordan and allowed people of all faiths to visit the holy sites.
If Jerusalem is not going to be run by an international governing body, then it should go to Israel. First, because when Muslims were in control of East Jerusalem, they didn't allow Jewish worshipers to visit the holy sites, second, the ancient Hebrews built the city, and third, Muslims have no right to claim it as their holy city. Mecca is their holy city. Mohammed never set foot in Jerusalem. In fact both Medina and Jerusalem were military conquests of Mohammed's army, claimed by warfare.
The city of Jerusalem was built by the Hebrews, destroyed by the Babylonians, rebuilt by the Jews under King David, torched by the Romans, and preserved by the Israelis. The Jewish people certainly deserve Jerusalem for many reasons.
Furhermore Molly,
Jerusalem WAS divided between Israel and Jordan for 19 years, between 1949 and 1967. The Jewish Quarter was ethnically cleansed of Jews in '48, and every one of its 60 synagogues was demolished. For 19 years barbed wire divided Jerusalem at the Mandelbaum Gate, just like Berlin. No Jews were permitted to go and pray at the Western Wall in all those years. Israel will never permit that to happen again. No Arab capital was ever or will ever arise in the Jewish capital.
I ask you this: as an American, can you begin to imagine dividing resources by religious/ethnic/linguistic identity? What part of justice don't you understand? What exists now is a one state solution, with one group in charge of a disenfranchised other group. In America we may have this, but it's not law anymore. Jim Crow is no longer legal. We at least say that we believe all our citizens are equal, even if in fact we don't yet treat them quite that way. We do not carry identity cards with religious or some ethnic identity on them. Does what go on over there jive with your sense of American justice and equal rights for all? It's not a case of giving a city to this group or that group. When you run people out of a city , deny them residency, even a plebiscite is not valid.
To Jill
What you wrote is both false and nonsense. Israel is one of the most pluralistic and democratic societies in the world! Twenty six percent of Israel are non-Jews, mostly Muslim and Christians, but also Buddhists and others. In Britain, the King or Queen must, by law, be of the Church of England (Anglican) and cannot be Catholic, Jewish or Muslim.
As for ID cards, most nations have them. In the US, since all of America, Canada and Australia was stolen from its truly indigenous natives, who were cast into tiny reservations, the Europeans who made their governments couldn't really establish a state based on ethnicity or religions, because none of them were indigenous to the country. They were all imported from Europe. Even Africans were imported and Christianized. It is totally unfair to compare America to the Europan states, or the Muslim states or Israel. They have totally different historical narratives and ancient customs.
to jgarburzq:
If Israel is so pluralistic, then why is it a 'jewish' state? why doesn't Israel agree to a single-state solution of all of the West Bank, Gaza, and Israel with a single vote for every citizen and a rubust secular constitution? Sure there are ethnic minorities in Israel, and we all know that they will certainly remain minorities.
To Jill and others: I think you are misinformed. The occupation exists today because the Muslim Palestinians in question refused statehood on every occasion between 1948 and 2000. They CHOSE statelessness, powerlessness, poverty, dependence on foreign aid, etc. as a protest to delegitimize the Jewish State.
In 2000, Israel offered East Jerusalem for a Palestinian state, but Arafat declined. Does it make any sense?
Do you remember how the Palestinians responded to this offer? The second Intifada. Does it make sense to you that instead of rejoicing about a new Palestinian state, Muslims all around the world were outraged just because a Jewish man walked on Muslim holy ground? Hello?? The Al-Aqsa Mosque is built on top of King David's temple. Please explain to me why any human being would get angry when the president of Israel wants to pray on the site of the ancient Hebrew temple?
How about using your humanistic energy to insure that the future Palestinian state will honor the rights of people of all races, religions, and sexual orientations.
Molly, I am not misinformed.
NO PEOPLE choose the statelessness and other nasty things you suggest they chose. Inform yourself. People are the same everywhere and want the same things that you and I want. These are just folks, like you and me. And if you knew more history than you do, you'd understand that these are not choices people made.
Arafat declined a settlement that would not resolve the refugee problem. in favor of a settlement that would stick. I'm not in the position of defending him, I wasn't at the Taba talks, but I think he knew what would work and wouldn't, and less than a comprehensive settlement probably wouldn't have. Read a little about it.
Sharon went up on the Al Aksa mount to stick it to the Palestinians as a deliberate act. He would have gladly admitted this I'm sure. (in private only probably, but he knew what he was doing. ) The site of the ancient Temple? Maybe, maybe not. Read: Neil Silberman and Israel Finkelstein :The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of It's Sacred Texts . But in any case, very few Israeli leaders were so religious that they had some driving need to pray on the site of any Hebrew temple and the compelling tenet of Hillel and Jewish justice would suggest that if he had such a need to do that, that he would have chosen a less inflammatory time to do it. (eg Did you know that David Ben Gurion agreed that the Palestinians would have no reason to make peace with the Zionist settlers? No reason, that is, because the Zionist settlers were making life so miserable for them, they'd be justified in not expecting peace. Did you know that he disparaged Jerusalem as a place of hyper religious Jews and made fun of people who fasted on Yom Kippur? e.g., religion was NOT the motive of Ariel Sharon to suddenly have to daven at the site of a very important Muslim mosque) (daven , if you don't know, means pray)
As for Jews living in a future Palestinian state? Look if there is to be a 2 state solution, it would seem that any "Jewish" settlers living there should become Palestinian citizens. Citizenship (for me as an American ) has little to do with one's religion, which is exactly what I was trying to tell you before. Why would they have to leave? well, maybe they have to pay honest money for their land and recompense the person who's land they took, sure, but their citizenship as Palestinians shouldn't be denied them because they aren't Christian or Muslim or whatever else religion they might be, if they weren't Jews.
Why is Israel a Jewish state? For the same reason Ireland is an Irish state, Germany a German state, Poland a Polish state, and Saudi Arabia and Arab state. The word "Jew" was used for anyone who originated in Judea even before Christianity or Islam even existed. And while it is true that the term "Jew" was often misunderstood to mean someone of a certain religion, in fact it means the member of a tribe. And that tribe, like all tribes, has a tribal religion. So on my Israel ID card it was written: Nationality: Jew. Religion: Jewish. Citizenship: Israel & US. Place of Birth: Germany. If I had been, say an Israeli Arab it might have been written as follows:
Nationality: Arab. Religion: Muslim. Citizenship: Israel. Place of Birth: Israel. And so on.
So in Israel, Jew is both a nationality and a religion. Israel is the place of residency or citizenship. And so on.
But Israel is legally the Jewish state, in accordance UN General Assembly Resolution 181 which defined it as the Jewish state.
Regarding the "settlers," the majority DID pay money for the land they live on, but since it is a death sentence for any Arab selling land to Jews, these payments were made under the table and unregistered. Even Bezalel, Israel's foremost human rights and anti-settler organization, stated that about 40% of the land the settlers live on was expropriated. But even if that figure is true, that means 60% was paid for. But even of that 40% I am willing to bet that much of it was either not legally owned by anyone beforehand, or money did change hands.
And certainly, if the land becomes part of a new Palestinian state, the settlers should be allowed to choose either to remain and become Palestinian citizens with the same rights that Arabs in Israel have (i.e., the right to vote), or to sell out and leave back to Israel proper. The question is if the Palestinian Arabs will let them stay in peace and not harass them once the IDF is gone and replaced by Fatah's security services. Or will they suffer vandalism, theft, or even worse?
gosh, jgarburzq, I don't think your explanation really holds much water. Good try, though.
We all know that the minorities, non-jewish, will remain as such. Why did Israel pull out of Gaza? Why was citizenship limited for non-jewish natives? Your analogy w/ Ireland would be accurate if Ireland happened to be a catholic state, which, last I looked, it isn't. Germany isn't a religious state, I don't think.
To assert that Israel is not a jewish state is clearly a canard. It is, of course, understandable why Israel would want to remain a jewish state -- given the endurance of jewish people thoughout history; thus, the necessity of a secure homeland, forever.
The question, though, is whether this product of history has created its own cruel seed of the state of Israel inflicting domination over another people, the Palestinians, in order to maintain the 'jewish' nature of their state. One would hope that there could be some faith that history is not always predictive. Do you think the people of Israel could live in a secular state with Palestinians? You know about South Africa, the US, all over Europe, and lots of others, may we suppose?
The Israelis should incur our wrath as well as that of the entire Middle East by brazenly building homes where they shouldn't. The Israelis are not good for their word and the Arabs know it.
Americans can't keep supporting a country that constantly fudges the line, constantly shoves its middle finger in the air, and then justifies whatever it wants to do, by crying about their survival!
Drop support for Israel - it's their responsibility to defend themselves and by removing our subsidies, they will learn that they must cooperate with their neighbors.
jgarbuzq,
I'm sorry, but your theory of identity doesn't hold water for me. Are the grandkids of Turks who moved to Germany and speak only German now, Germans? (similarly, are the grandkids of Mexicans who have moved here less American than you or I?)
European ethno-nationalism may well have been the impetus for a political zionism but it is breaking down in Europe (as well it must) and NEVER existed here really.
I know secular Jews who insist that Jewish identity is tribal as you seem to suggest. I am very much an Ashkenazic Jew myself but i am NOT an Israeli. No way (even tho, in some odd form of Zionist political claims, I can vote in the World Zionist org. which is quasi governmental! ) And yet, my Palestinian friends who were born there, or born of refugee parents, have way more of a connection, culturally, heritage wise and so on. and if they left, either by choice or not by their choice, they can't go back.
Most 'tribes' have something that unites them, be it race/language/religion/national origin, etc. but the ONLY thing that connects me to Jews who are not Ashkenazim is RELIGION. Judaism is basically a religious identity such that when it's removed, lasts only as long as the participants want to claim it. Sure, I eat gefilte fish but not Yemeni Jews!
Does eating kugel and gefilte fish a Jew make? This is the basis of a political identity? I venture to say there is an Israeli identity that claims to be Jewish but some of them are so utterly secular, they don't know what it's like to be Jewish in a religious sense at all. Their identity seems to be utter nationalism. That makes no sense to me as an American where my citizenship has NO religious implications (in spite of the best efforts of the Christian right here to change that )
If in Israel a Jew is both a nationality and a religion, what is the nationality (not citizenship but nationality) of the roughly 20% who are of Palestinian ethnicity? and what do you do with those who are neither? It's my understanding that there is no such thing legally as an Israeli nationality ! .
One more concept: Germany was historically German. Israel has not existed for 2,000 yrs. In the mean time, the people who were living there were identified many different ways. sometimes as Christian, sometimes as Muslim, a few remained identified as Jews down thru the ages.
God is not a real estate agent who saved it only for those who may or may not be descendants of previous tenants who left a couple millenia ago but who can prove to the orthodox rabbis that they are Halakhically Jews.
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Jill - Hamas is so powerful now, backed by Iran. Do you feel comfortable giving Hamas access to East Jerusalem? And do you have any reason to believe the Palestinian clergy will stop destroying the archaeological evidence of a Jewish presence as the Jordanians did by destroying 60 synagogues?
Most everyone else - Jordan just revoked Jordanian citizenship from 3,000 Palestinians. Are you seething with anger about that? Or do you only care about the Palestinians who want to take back the property they unfortunately lost when their stupid leaders waged and lost a war in 1948? When you start a war you forfeit the right of return, didn't any of you know that?
Molly, there is serious question about who started that war, but aside from that, justice is justice and group punishment is not justice. Should our grandkids suffer because we started a war in Iraq that was based on a lie?
Should our grandkids pay for what we did to native Americans ? (see Wounded Knee or Trail of Tears for the most obvious examples)
You are mixing issues here, not answering what I wrote. But, yes, I feel very badly about the Palestinians who lost their citizenship in Jordan. I'm so not into nationalism but a passport and citizenship are entitlements that every one in the world deserves. EVERYONE and they deserve equal citizenship as well. Of course, that incident should be an example of how all Arabs aren't just '22' states of monolithic people, yes? !
As for Hamas in Jersualem? Hamas is only powerful when the conditions fuel their issues.. Not every Palestinian supports Hamas by a long shot. But why give them fuel ?
In the end, we are as Jews extolled to Do Justice, Love Mercy, and Walk Humbly with G-d. which I think is from Micah. Beating down occupied people, taking their land and bulldozing their homes is hardly that.
ps It occurs to me that Japan started a war with us. do we have the right to kick 'em off those islands now?
just wondering
My arguments are based on hard facts, while yours are based on sheer propaganda with NO basis in fact! The Israel is the historic homeland of the Jewish nation.I am a Jew by birth, not because I chose some religion to believe in, or not. Israel was confirmed as the Jewish NATIONAL home by international law via the Council of the League of Nations in 1922.
If all the Irish had been forced to leave Ireland due to the famine and occupied by Arabs, it would still remain the Irish homeland in the eyes of all of Irish people worldwide regardless of who was occupying their homeland.
The Jewish homeland, Judea, did fall into the hands of occupiers who tried to obliterate our connection to our national soil, but thankfully, through the Grace of God, the Jewish people have mercifully been allowed to redeem.
As for your calumnies that Israel does not give the vote and full civil rights to all of its citizens, whether they be Arabs, Druze, Armenians, or others, that is simply blatant ignorance or willful distortion of the truth. The insipid comparisons to South Africa are libellous and slanderous, and utterly untrue. Good day.
Japan was never the homeland of the European settlers who occupied North America. A country that spread from 13 colonies along the coast of the Atlantic all the way to the middle of the Pacific when it stole the kingdom of Hawaii and annexed it to the US. The US would have annexed Mexico in 1947, but it was heavily inhabited by many brown, spanish-speaking people. The US is no moral position whatsoever to criticize Israel for redeeming and reoccupying their ancient homeland which was recognized as such by the ruling Council of the League of Nations in 1922. Nevertheless, the US still keeps troops on Japanese soil, in Okinawa to this day. It also continues to occupy Puerto Rico, Guam and other islands it took in the Spanish-American war of 110 years ago.
No, the Turks who immigrated to Germany are not considered Germans, just as I, born in a displaced persons camp in Bavaria after the war is considered a German. I was born in Germany but do not consider myself a German. Nor do Germans consider me a German. In this day of identity theft, I do not engage in it. My identity as a Jew is due to the fact that I was born to a Jewish mother, a holocaust survivor. Nobody can give me an identity nor steal it from me. As a Jew, my homeland is the Land of Israel, which was called Judea under white European Roman rule. It doesn't matter what country I live in, or what other citizenship I may hold, my ancient homeland remains the Land of Israel, which Arabs have tried to occupy and usurp. I refuse to accept their usurpation of Jewish land.
So you have chosen to cut your ties with the tribe. That's fine. The Jewish people are not Muslims, and you can cut your ties to the JEwish people if that holds you is food. Most German Jews tried to do that in Germany and were the most assimilated "JEws" in the world. They had no truck with Zionism or Israel. But as my mother told me, it does matter who or what you think you are. The others will tell you who you are if you have willfully forgotten. It's only a matter of time. You can run. You can hide. You cannot escape.